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MonsterMan the Sheepdog

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Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe?
Reply #10 - Oct 12^th, 2008, 3:58pm

Quote from amberdiann on Oct 12^th, 2008, 10:37am:

We believe the zygote/embryo/fetus is not life until it can live outside of the womb. A dependant part of your body is not granted the same rights as you - a living, breathing, cognitive person. To us, it's not a seperate life.

It makes absolutely no sense to actuallly believe this. There is no difference between a child which has just been born and that of a child 5 minutes before birth other than being inside of a mother. So your argument is that simply because the child is inside the womb at 5 minutes prior to birth it is not a life. That is absurd.

If we were to follow your argument even further, the child is not really a living life worth of protection until the cord has been cut, even though it is outside the womb. Do you believe that as well?

Quote:

You have choice when you are no longer dependant on my body to be sustained.

If your argument is that life = choice and that being dependant = no choice then not even a just born child is alive either. A baby is still dependant upon others to stay alive even after birth and technically the mothers body continues to produce milk for the child to survive as well.

Your arguments are illogcial and absurd when carried out to their fullest extent.

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amberdiann

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Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe?
Reply #11 - Oct 12^th, 2008, 6:51pm

Quote from MonsterMan with a Pistol on Oct 12^th, 2008, 3:58pm:

It makes absolutely no sense to actuallly believe this. There is no difference between a child which has just been born and that of a child 5 minutes before birth other than being inside of a mother. So your argument is that simply because the child is inside the womb at 5 minutes prior to birth it is not a life. That is absurd.

No no no. I'm saying that I agree that abortion should not be legalized (and it's not) for a fetus that can live outside of the womb. So a fetus 5 minutes before birth is just as legitament as a child born 5 minutes after birth. This is just my OPINION - not as the law states.

Quote from MonsterMan with a Pistol on Oct 12^th, 2008, 3:58pm:

If we were to follow your argument even further, the child is not really a living life worth of protection until the cord has been cut, even though it is outside the womb. Do you believe that as well?

Again, my OPINION is that at 24 weeks when a fetus can live outside of the womb without the support of the female it should then be afforded the same legal rights of the female. Cord or not. Keywords: without support of the female's body.

Quote from MonsterMan with a Pistol on Oct 12^th, 2008, 3:58pm:

If your argument is that life = choice and that being dependant = no choice then not even a just born child is alive either. A baby is still dependant upon others to stay alive even after birth and technically the mothers body continues to produce milk for the child to survive as well.

Your arguments are illogcial and absurd when carried out to their fullest extent.

Again... being dependant on others (or machines) to stay alive is different than being dependant on my body. A man of life support is dependant of a machine - still should be afforded the same legal rights. However, if that same man is connected to me living off my body - that man is a parasite (for lack of a better word).

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"I am not angry that you lied to me. I'm upset that from now on I cannot trust you." -Nietzsche

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Duncan_Pa LNF Moderator LNF Bunker Doofus Posts: 4222	Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe? Reply #12 - Oct 14^th, 2008, 1:32pm Quote from amberdiann on Oct 12^th, 2008, 10:33am: We disagree on the fundamental question of "What is life?" Not really. Biologists have pretty much nailed that one. I hear there is still some argument about viruses being alive but beyond that "What is life?" is not a question of debate for sane people.
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Duncan_Pa LNF Moderator LNF Bunker Doofus Posts: 4222	Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe? Reply #13 - Oct 14^th, 2008, 1:35pm Quote from Maryjo on Oct 8^th, 2008, 6:59am: If life doesn't exist then what will be the use of other things Good question Maryjo! I far as I can see there is no point for anything without life.
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Duncan_Pa

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Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe?
Reply #14 - Oct 14^th, 2008, 1:43pm

Quote from amberdiann on Oct 12^th, 2008, 10:37am:

We believe the zygote/embryo/fetus is not life until it can live outside of the womb. A dependant part of your body is not granted the same rights as you - a living, breathing, cognitive person. To us, it's not a seperate life.

You have choice when you are no longer dependant on my body to be sustained.

Your so-called definition for the unborn is nothing more than the same argument slavers have used to justify having slaves.

You should be more honest with yourself.

Instead of lying and trying to convince yourself an unborn baby is not a life you should be saying that you think the unborn is a slave to the will of the mother. That you think the unborn human has no rights and the mother is free to decide if the baby lives or dies.

This would be much more honest.

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« Last Edit: Oct 14^th, 2008, 3:02pm by Duncan_Pa »

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DKM

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Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe?
Reply #15 - Oct 21^st, 2008, 8:10pm

Quote from Duncan_Na on Oct 14^th, 2008, 1:43pm:

Your so-called definition for the unborn is nothing more than the same argument slavers have used to justify having slaves.

You should be more honest with yourself.

Instead of lying and trying to convince yourself an unborn baby is not a life you should be saying that you think the unborn is a slave to the will of the mother. That you think the unborn human has no rights and the mother is free to decide if the baby lives or dies.

This would be much more honest.

Actually, slaves do not have rights to decide how their body will be deployed.

Your demand that a woman should not be allowed to choose how her body is to be used, is to reduce her to a slave to your will.

As for the embryo which she is pregnant with, well, it is not yours to determine its disposition either way, if anyone should be allowed to make a choice on its future it is surely the woman who is pregnant since it is her body at risk and her bodily functions used in supplying nutrients and nuture to the embryo.

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Duncan_Pa

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Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe?
Reply #16 - Oct 21^st, 2008, 8:36pm

Quote from DKM on Oct 21^st, 2008, 8:10pm:

Actually, slaves do not have rights to decide how their body will be deployed.

Strange that you so quickly recognize the body of the mother yet ignore unborn human. Which human is killed in an abortion?

Quote from DKM on Oct 21^st, 2008, 8:10pm:

Your demand that a woman should not be allowed to choose how her body is to be used, is to reduce her to a slave to your will.

I wonder if you will ever get tired of this old lie you mindlessly repeat whenever you pop in. A free woman that chooses to allow her body to be "used" (your words) in a manner that naturally results in pregnancy is most certainly not a slave to my will. She made the choice. She now has the chance to live with the results of her choice by respecting the life of the unborn human or she can determine the unborn human is nothing more than a slave to her will. A life she can destroy if she determines that is what she wants to do.

Quote from DKM on Oct 21^st, 2008, 8:10pm:

As for the embryo which she is pregnant with, well, it is not yours to determine its disposition either way...

As a fellow member of the human race in a society that claims to respect the innate rights of others I am free to defend the unborn humans rights to life. It is my duty to combat those that desire to keep them in servitude.

Quote from DKM on Oct 21^st, 2008, 8:10pm:

...if anyone should be allowed to make a choice on its future it is surely the woman who is pregnant since it is her body at risk and her bodily functions used in supplying nutrients and nuture to the embryo.

It is not her body at risk. In an abortion it is the unborns body.

Another on this forum is not honest enough with themselves to answer the following questions. How about you, DKM?

Should a mother be allowed to kill children in their womb whenever they want regardless of the circumstance? Should the unborn human within be allowed the most basic human right (the right to life) we Americans give to all humans due to the fact that it is a living, human organism? Is the unborn human a slave to the will of the mother?

Can you answer these questions without using the weak materialist arguments you hide behind?

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DKM

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Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe?
Reply #17 - Oct 30^th, 2008, 2:26am

Quote from Duncan_Pa on Oct 21^st, 2008, 8:36pm:

1
Strange that you so quickly recognize the body of the mother yet ignore unborn human. Which human is killed in an abortion?

2
As a fellow member of the human race in a society that claims to respect the innate rights of others I am free to defend the unborn humans rights to life. It is my duty to combat those that desire to keep them in servitude.

3
It is not her body at risk. In an abortion it is the unborns body.

4
Another on this forum is not honest enough with themselves to answer the following questions. How about you, DKM?

5
Should a mother be allowed to kill children in their womb whenever they want regardless of the circumstance? Should the unborn human within be allowed the most basic human right (the right to life) we Americans give to all humans due to the fact that it is a living, human organism? Is the unborn human a slave to the will of the mother?

6
Can you answer these questions without using the weak materialist arguments you hide behind?

1 So you are promoting the enslavement of a cognitive human being in pursuit of your personal demands

2 It is not your right to impose your expectations upon them, especially as you are taking no responsibilty for those expectations

3 Pregnancy is a process not free of some serious medical and emotional consequiences, it is certainly not "risk free".

4 Challenging my "honesty" based on your almost total ignorance of me is merely a weak attempt at an ad homenine

5 I believe the embryo is subordinate entity with subordinate rights to the woman in whose body it is developing.

6 I am not sure where you come up with assumptions to me providing a material argument.

My view is based on values I hold which run far deeper than the abortion issue and far deeper than mere material concerns.

When a person is denied the soveriegnty over their own body, they are diminished to the point where "life" is stripped of its quality and reduced to mere existence

And in the context of the abortion issue, reduced to the mere existence of a life support system for a fetus.

You can throw cheap shots at me with suggestions to "Material arguments" and "lack of honesty" but such a debating strategy illuminates the weakness and motivations of your own reasoning and places it under the microscope.

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Freedom measures the Fool and the Sage by the quality of their respective Reason
Censorship measures them as Equals

Debate is a battle of Wits
Too many come here to battle unarmed

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MonsterMan the Sheepdog

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Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe?
Reply #18 - Oct 31^st, 2008, 2:32am

Quote from DKM on Oct 21^st, 2008, 8:10pm:

Actually, slaves do not have rights to decide how their body will be deployed.

Well, it all depends on what type of slave we are talking about.

Quote:

Your demand that a woman should not be allowed to choose how her body is to be used, is to reduce her to a slave to your will.

No it is not. You are talking in absolutes. We are talking about only what a woman can and can't do with her body in regards to what is another living being.

That is hardly slavery at all.

It is an absurdly exteme argument to think so and claim so.

Quote:

As for the embryo which she is pregnant with, well, it is not yours to determine its disposition either way, if anyone should be allowed to make a choice on its future it is surely the woman who is pregnant since it is her body at risk and her bodily functions used in supplying nutrients and nuture to the embryo.

Well, unless it is a living being.

It is rather simple. Do you believe that the unborn child is a living being worth protecting or not?

If you don't then it doesn't matter if the "thing" is in the 9th Trimester. Kill it. Right?

[/quote]

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Duncan_Pa

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Re: What IS The Value of a LIfe?
Reply #19 - Oct 31^st, 2008, 10:26am

Quote from DKM on Oct 30^th, 2008, 2:26am:

1 So you are promoting the enslavement of a cognitive human being in pursuit of your personal demands

Not at all. Though it is apparent that you are promoting slavery.

Quote from DKM on Oct 30^th, 2008, 2:26am:

2 It is not your right to impose your expectations upon them, especially as you are taking no responsibilty for those expectations.

I am perfectly within my rights to expect my fellow citizens to not kill other humans if they lack due cause.

Quote from DKM on Oct 30^th, 2008, 2:26am:

3 Pregnancy is a process not free of some serious medical and emotional consequiences, it is certainly not "risk free".

I never said it was.

Quote from DKM on Oct 30^th, 2008, 2:26am:

4 Challenging my "honesty" based on your almost total ignorance of me is merely a weak attempt at an ad homenine

You can accurately point out risks and emotional issues in pregnancy but are too blind to apply these traits to killing other humans and simple discussion? Come now, DKM.

Quote from DKM on Oct 30^th, 2008, 2:26am:

5 I believe the embryo is subordinate entity with subordinate rights to the woman in whose body it is developing.

In plain speak: You believe that the unborn human is a slave to the will of the mother. So beneath consideration you cannot even be bothered to call them human.

Am I correct with this?

Quote from DKM on Oct 30^th, 2008, 2:26am:

6 I am not sure where you come up with assumptions to me providing a material argument.

My view is based on values I hold which run far deeper than the abortion issue and far deeper than mere material concerns.

When a person is denied the soveriegnty over their own body, they are diminished to the point where "life" is stripped of its quality and reduced to mere existence

And in the context of the abortion issue, reduced to the mere existence of a life support system for a fetus.

Logical. Concise. Straight to the point. Materialistic bull$#it.

You ignore the humanity of the human being killed in abortion. You pretend to be concerned for the life status of a woman and belie this concern with off-hand dismissal of the life most affected in abortion. Which, if you have not figured it out yet, is the life that is killed. This inability to place value on human life at its most defenseless shows you have no true respect for the value of life. That you are willing to let someone place some fictional right of material concerns over some else's right to simply be alive clearly shows what camp you are in even if you are too proud to admit to the shallowness of your stance.

Quote from DKM on Oct 30^th, 2008, 2:26am:

You can throw cheap shots at me with suggestions to "Material arguments" and "lack of honesty" but such a debating strategy illuminates the weakness and motivations of your own reasoning and places it under the microscope.

Though I was no fan of his politics one of my favorite writers often spoke of the impossibility of removing oneself from their writing. That those that claim or attempt do this are merely deluding others and/or themselves. This happens all the time in the fictional world of internet "debating." You are welcome to remain there or feel free to come to the table with your biases on the table for all to see. I have no problem with pointing them out for you as long as you keep trying to run away from them.

Right now it is clear you are in favor of slavery of the unborn. It is also seems that you consider, under certain circumstances, that the material concerns of one human should be enough to allow them to kill other humans. I am sure you have rational explanations for these positions. It would be nice to see them clearly stated.

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« Last Edit: Oct 31^st, 2008, 12:20pm by Duncan_Pa »

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