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Thomas_Paine LNF House Leader LNF Bunker A government of laws, not of men. John Adams Posts: 7996 Gender:	The War Between the States Feb 22^nd, 2009, 12:58am A claim has been made that Pres. Lincoln started the War Between the States. I challenge those who have made that claim to prove it.
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FreedomLover LNF Moderator Conservative Caucus LNF Bunker RIP Roger... you'll be missed. Posts: 24090 Gender:	Re: The War Between the States Reply #1 - Feb 22^nd, 2009, 3:35am Lincoln didn't start the War of Southern Rebellion. A slave owning, elitist group of southern firebrands pushed and pulled southerners into rebellion and it was the Confederacy which fired the first shot.... over half a million Americans died just so they could try to hold onto their wealth and status.
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Thomas_Paine LNF House Leader LNF Bunker A government of laws, not of men. John Adams Posts: 7996 Gender:	Re: The War Between the States Reply #2 - Feb 22^nd, 2009, 5:39pm What FreedomLover has said in one paragraph is a succinct and very accurate explanation of why the War Between the States was fought.
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Dan the Palin Fan

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Re: The War Between the States
Reply #3 - Feb 23^rd, 2009, 3:16pm

Quote from FreedomLover on Feb 22^nd, 2009, 3:35am:

Lincoln didn't start the War of Southern Rebellion. A slave owning, elitist group of southern firebrands pushed and pulled southerners into rebellion and it was the Confederacy which fired the first shot.... over half a million Americans died just so they could try to hold onto their wealth and status.

What's your take on the role of states rights as it relates to the war? Or was that just silly talk?

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FreedomLover

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Re: The War Between the States
Reply #4 - Feb 25^th, 2009, 11:51pm

Quote from DanM70 on Feb 23^rd, 2009, 3:16pm:

What's your take on the role of states rights as it relates to the war? Or was that just silly talk?

I think it was rhetoric, a way sell the war to the average Southerner..... and I think the average Southerner honestly fought in part for the concept of state's rights but that's not why the war was started.

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Dan the Palin Fan

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Re: The War Between the States
Reply #5 - Feb 26^th, 2009, 2:44pm

Quote from FreedomLover on Feb 25^th, 2009, 11:51pm:

I think it was rhetoric, a way sell the war to the average Southerner..... and I think the average Southerner honestly fought in part for the concept of state's rights but that's not why the war was started.

OK, but I have to respectfully disagree. Lincoln fundamentally changed the realationship between the federal government and the states. I don't understand why you don't want to acknowledge that.

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FreedomLover

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Re: The War Between the States
Reply #6 - Feb 26^th, 2009, 4:38pm

Quote from DanM70 on Feb 26^th, 2009, 2:44pm:

OK, but I have to respectfully disagree. Lincoln fundamentally changed the realationship between the federal government and the states. I don't understand why you don't want to acknowledge that.

Could you lay out for me how you think Lincoln "fundamentally changed the relationship between the federal government and the states."

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Re: The War Between the States
Reply #7 - Mar 11^th, 2009, 10:27am

The war started brewing long before President Lincoln took office. There was division between the Northern and Southern states way back in the 1800s and earlier. The Constitutional Convention had its share of division with Representation in Congress with the 3/5 Compromise and others. Slavery was one of the issues but the you can also include the tariffs in the 20s divided them as well. It was already cooking when he took office.

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Jason_The Beer Connoisseur

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Re: The War Between the States
Reply #8 - Apr 18^th, 2009, 8:32am

I do not think that Lincoln was around long enough to do enough damage himself alone. He did lead the war effort for the union and was successful in the military defeat of the Confederacy, although you haft to remember he was not around all that long. The early republican party is what changed this country. The Federal government refused to recognize the realities, rights, and provisions of the constitution. They ignored states that pleaded for compromise for years. Then the southern states said ok we will just try nullification. This is the point at which the union decided that it would not take any more. They would not allow the states to nullify legislation, they would not allow in essence another country to form at their doorstep. I firmly believe that the southern confederacy would have not fought if they believed the union would not destroy them for not obeying. I sometimes think that the civil war was inevitable given the country's history and political background. So lets not fret over Lincoln. Admit that he is a bit overrated (kind of like some people are today).

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Thomas_Paine

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Re: The War Between the States
Reply #9 - Apr 29^th, 2009, 2:44pm

The southern states had a double standard when it came to the nullification of Federal laws. The southern states believed they had the right to nullify tariff laws but that the northern states could not nullify laws to enforce the return of slaves that had run away. What the southern states wanted was the right not to pay taxes to support the Federal government. They did, however, want the Federal government to spend the tax money they didn't want to pay to deny freedom to people they consider their property. That is a very selective interpretation of the idea of states rights. The southern states had the right to pick which Federal laws they would enforce but the northern states did not have that right. That reminds me of the theme for the book Animal Farm, "Some are more equal than others." Whites are more equal than blacks and the southern states are more equal than the northern states.

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"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

Never accuse others to excuse yourself.

A libertarian is an anarchist masquerading as a conservative.

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