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Shooterman

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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #160 - Mar 13^th, 2009, 10:06am

Quote from Senator_Hatrack on Mar 13^th, 2009, 12:34am:

What's the matter Shooter, you couldn't refute anything I had to say so you question my education on an issue?

I have not questioned your education, SH. In fact, as you recall, I complimented you on having so much more than this old dumb ass.

I've given you links and arguments, which you have disregarded out of hand, ( and doubtfully even read ) so why continue down this track.

While a law dictionary in 1856 and another in 1979 give definitions of sovereignty you like, you fail to address what was understood by the people, all much better informed than we are today, as to sovereignty of the states and who created the national government. It doesn't fit with your ideas.

The crowning for me was your total misunderstanding, or at least your passing off as rhetoric or diplomacy, the Treaty of Paris and the King's addressing and signing the peace treaty with thirteen sovereign states.

Of course, no where have you addressed the fact that even though the states delegated certain powers unto the national government, they certainly in no way delegated all powers, thereby retaining sovereignty in all other matters.

Any, that disagree with the Mythology of The Union as being inviolate, are dismissed as Southern Apologists, racists, and basically nincompoops.

Any that denounces Lincoln, ( almost of an immaculate birth and sitting at God's right hand ) are denounced out of hand as the darkest of creatures from some black hole. Thankfully, more and more evidence is being mounted to prove what a scumbag bastard he was, but the Lincoln Gatekeepers will never allow his name to be besmirched. So be it.

So it appears you have won the field. The joust for now is over. I still believe, even though you are woefully wrong on this, you are a good man and a pretty fair conservative.

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"The United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution......." US vs Verdugo-Urquidez

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Thomas_Paine

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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #161 - Mar 13^th, 2009, 1:32pm

Quote from Shooterman on Mar 13^th, 2009, 10:06am:

I have not questioned your education, SH. In fact, as you recall, I complimented you on having so much more than this old dumb ass.

If I have more of an education is it not possible that I know what I am talking about? A remote possibility but still a possiblity.
Grin

Quote:

I've given you links and arguments, which you have disregarded out of hand, ( and doubtfully even read ) so why continue down this track.

I have read the links and arguments you have provided and found them wanting.

Quote:

While a law dictionary in 1856 and another in 1979 give definitions of sovereignty you like, you fail to address what was understood by the people, all much better informed than we are today, as to sovereignty of the states and who created the national government. It doesn't fit with your ideas.

Then read Federalist Paper # 32 written by your favorite Founding Father, Alexander Hamilton.
Quote:

But as the plan of the Convention aims at only a partial Union or consolidation, the State Governments would clearly retain all rights of sovereignty which they had before and which were not by that act exclusively delegated to the United States.

In order to create a sovereign nation it cannot be made up of 13 or 50 sovereign states. A Federal government must have more authority than the states or there is no unity. Without unity there is no country. All of of our Founding Fathers knew this, even that monarchist Hamilton.

Quote:

The crowning for me was your total misunderstanding, or at least your passing off as rhetoric or diplomacy, the Treaty of Paris and the King's addressing and signing the peace treaty with thirteen sovereign states.

It was not I who misunderstands what King George III wrote. Not only do I understand what he wrote I explained why he wrote what he did. You reject my explanation because it fit with your ideas.

Quote:

Of course, no where have you addressed the fact that even though the states delegated certain powers unto the national government, they certainly in no way delegated all powers, thereby retaining sovereignty in all other matters.

Please reread what I wrote in reply #149.

Quote:

Any, that disagree with the Mythology of The Union as being inviolate, are dismissed as Southern Apologists, racists, and basically nincompoops.

With the exception of nincompoops if the shoe fits... One reason I am so adamant about this issue is that when the noble and fundamental issue of states rights is misused as you have it weakens the argument for the states rights as our Founding Fathers intended it to be. When the issue of states rights is weakened in this way it strengthens the people we conservatives must defeat to save our country from their desire to continuely enlarge our Federal government.

Quote:

Any that denounces Lincoln, ( almost of an immaculate birth and sitting at God's right hand ) are denounced out of hand as the darkest of creatures from some black hole. Thankfully, more and more evidence is being mounted to prove what a scumbag bastard he was, but the Lincoln Gatekeepers will never allow his name to be besmirched. So be it.

Abraham Lincoln like every other president of our country has had and will have are flawed human beings. When you criticize things that are not flaws of course I will defend him. For as I have said were it not for Lincoln's saving the Union it quite unlikely that our country would still be here.

Quote:

So it appears you have won the field. The joust for now is over. I still believe, even though you are woefully wrong on this, you are a good man and a pretty fair conservative.

I believe that it you who is woefully wrong and also a good man. What I object to is your attempt to conserve the wrong ideas about states rights. Men like John C. Calhoun, Jefferson Davis and others misused the issue of states rights to deny blacks their G*D given and Constitutionally protected rights. That is wrong and I will oppose the misuse of states rights for the purpose of denying anyone the protection of their rights that our Constitution was written for.

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Stukov

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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #162 - Mar 19^th, 2009, 2:08am

Quote from Senator_Hatrack on Mar 11^th, 2009, 10:59am:

How many times must the definition of the word sovereignty be shown to you before you understand it? With the ratification of our Constitution the states ceded their sovereignty to our Federal government! A sovereign state can declare war and make treaties that is the test of sovereignty. No state in the Union has the power to decalre war or make treaties. Therefore the states of the Union are not sovereign states. The idea that the states of the Union were or are sovereign is wrong. The states of the Union are autonomous they are not sovereign.
It is you Shooter who is doing the dancing. A desperate dance so that you can continue to believe that Pres. Lincoln is responsible for the War Between the States. You are wrong about both who started the War Between the States and the idea that the states of the Union are sovereign states.

I would just like to point out that you are wrong here with your logic and facts. Just because the states cannot declare war or make a treaty does not mean they are not soverign. They are in fact soverign, with exception to what is outlined in the constitution. With their soverignty they handed over their right to declare war to the congress. Treaties, I don't recall if it is in the constitution or not, would be the same thing if it is.

The fact of the matter is the States ARE soverign with exception to the provisions of the constitution, even the 10th amendment says so.

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Shooterman

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2009 LNF libertarian
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Posts: 20768

Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #163 - Mar 19^th, 2009, 8:20am

Quote from Stukov on Mar 19^th, 2009, 2:08am:

I would just like to point out that you are wrong here with your logic and facts. Just because the states cannot declare war or make a treaty does not mean they are not soverign. They are in fact soverign, with exception to what is outlined in the constitution. With their soverignty they handed over their right to declare war to the congress. Treaties, I don't recall if it is in the constitution or not, would be the same thing if it is.

The fact of the matter is the States ARE soverign with exception to the provisions of the constitution, even the 10th amendment says so.

Exactly what I have pointed out to SH.

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We should not fall into the trap of taking ourselves too seriously. We are but sojourners between the Great Eternities Shooterman 1935-

"The United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution......." US vs Verdugo-Urquidez

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Thomas_Paine

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A government of
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #164 - Mar 19^th, 2009, 1:10pm

This is from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th Edition
sovereign
Quote:

1) possessing supreme or ultimate power.
› archaic or literary possessing royal power and status.
2) (of a nation or its affairs) acting or done independently and without outside interference.

Since the founding of our country has any state ever had the supreme or ultimate power over what it does? Has any state ever acted without outside interference? If, Stukov you or Shooter can show where any state in the US has always had supreme and ultimate power to act independently without any interference then I will agree that the states are sovereign. However one instance where any state has had to yield to the authority of our US government negates the idea that the states are sovereign.

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May you always walk in beauty

Brevity is the soul of wit.

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

Never accuse others to excuse yourself.

A libertarian is an anarchist masquerading as a conservative.

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Stukov

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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #165 - Mar 20^th, 2009, 12:33am

Quote from Senator_Hatrack on Mar 19^th, 2009, 1:10pm:

This is from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th Edition
sovereign
Since the founding of our country has any state ever had the supreme or ultimate power over what it does? Has any state ever acted without outside interference? If, Stukov you or Shooter can show where any state in the US has always had supreme and ultimate power to act independently without any interference then I will agree that the states are sovereign. However one instance where any state has had to yield to the authority of our US government negates the idea that the states are sovereign.

Just to be clear, you aren't going to encapsulate thousands of years of history regarding sovereignty in 2 short sentaces out of an english dictionary, that just reminds me of trying to argue with some idiot (not saying you are one) about what constitutes legal theft, while I was using State Law Statutes and he was quoting out of a regular dictionary.

The con. outlines what are Fed matters and what are State matters, each, have sovereingty over their respective manners. I don't know how much more simple I can explain it.

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Thomas_Paine LNF House Leader LNF Bunker A government of laws, not of men. John Adams Posts: 7996 Gender:	Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government? Reply #166 - Mar 20^th, 2009, 1:32am That which is sovereign is the supreme and ultimate authority that answers to no one. Can any state in the Union pass a law that bans the IRS from collecting taxes in a state? If any of the states were truly sovereign they could outlaw the IRS.
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Stukov

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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #167 - Mar 20^th, 2009, 2:00am

Quote from Senator_Hatrack on Mar 20^th, 2009, 1:32am:

That which is sovereign is the supreme and ultimate authority that answers to no one. Can any state in the Union pass a law that bans the IRS from collecting taxes in a state? If any of the states were truly sovereign they could outlaw the IRS.

Yes, they could ban the US IRS in the state, unless there is a provision in the US constitution that allows for it to exist.

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Thomas_Paine

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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #168 - Mar 20^th, 2009, 11:40pm

Quote from Stukov on Mar 20^th, 2009, 2:00am:

Yes, they could ban the US IRS in the state, unless there is a provision in the US constitution that allows for it to exist.

The provision is called the XVI Amendment. So a state cannot ban the IRS. If a state cannot ban our US government from collecting taxes it is not a sovereign state.

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May you always walk in beauty

Brevity is the soul of wit.

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

Never accuse others to excuse yourself.

A libertarian is an anarchist masquerading as a conservative.

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Stukov

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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #169 - Mar 21^st, 2009, 6:47am

Quote from Senator_Hatrack on Mar 20^th, 2009, 11:40pm:

The provision is called the XVI Amendment. So a state cannot ban the IRS. If a state cannot ban our US government from collecting taxes it is not a sovereign state.

The Fed has power to lay and collect taxes, but that does not mean the IRS is constitutional.

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