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jeff

Ex Member

justification from "The Bible"
Mar 18^th, 2008 at 8:25am

this comes up every now and then: people justify their actions and quote a section of the Old Testament - the Law - to support their beliefs (for example, texts supporting war or keeping the Sabbath to support contemporary actions or restrictions).

first, Paul writes a whole lot on the limitations and even weakness of the Law to perform as people want it to.

second, Jesus breaks the Law to demonstrate that there is an older and better precedent to law (also to demonstrate that the Law was created for people and not people for the Law).

so the mantra, "the Bible says, i believe it" is a bit weak in dealing with the heart of God. only because the letter of the most perfect law can be read and interpreted to destroy people. and how does that line up with the loving heart of God?

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JDD

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Re: justification from "The Bible"
Reply #1 - Mar 19^th, 2008 at 12:19pm

Quote:

this comes up every now and then:(1) people justify their actions and quote a section of the Old Testament - the Law - to support their beliefs (for example, texts supporting (2) war or keeping the (3) Sabbath to support contemporary actions or restrictions).

(4) first, Paul writes a whole lot on the limitations and even weakness of the Law to perform as people want it to.

(5) second, Jesus breaks the Law to demonstrate that there is an older and better precedent to law (also to demonstrate that the Law was created for people and not people for the Law).

so the mantra (6) "the Bible says, i believe it" is a bit weak in dealing with the heart of God. only because the (7) letter of the most perfect law can be read and interpreted to destroy people. (8) and how does that line up with the loving heart of God?

Good points Jeff, my position is (1) The only law that transfers from the OT to the church are the moral ones ie shalt not murder, steal etc ~ almost everything else is God dealing with the Jews and designed to keep her a separate and distinct people

(2) christians get their instructions for living the righteous life from Jesus and the NT primarily. Even instructions for killing evil doers (domestic and foreign) can be found in the NT, after all Jesus is the author of all Scripture through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit

(3) Here again the NT (new covenant) is our guide. If a person wants to observe a sabbath and or eat certain foods let them, but for a christian EVERY day is unto the Lord

(4) The law cannot be kept by man and shows a desperate need for a Savior, it's a mirror showing that need

(5) Came to fulfill it, then demonstrated the need for Him

(6) I believe whole heartedly in that mantra, BUT in proper context of course. Many people have gotten themselves in a heap of trouble down through the ages by taking all kinds of things from the Bible out of context to justify wrong doing

(7) Only when taken out of context. Jesus broke it down to the simplest form LOVE : GOD/neighbor, following that principle will cause all other aspects to fall into place

(8) Love is God's heart. Mans nature is to foul up everything he touches eventually, the revealed Word of God is part of that "everything" man has tainted.

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fair-minded know it all

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Re: justification from "The Bible"
Reply #2 - Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 6:32am

Jesus was the only One that fullfilled the covenant with God. He was the true Israel of God. The True Seed of Abraham. He fullfilled the ceremonial law. And He kept the moral law the to the nth degree. Did He break the Sabbath commandment? I don't believe He did. He said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. He was the greatest Sabbath keeper. I agree though that after His death the true Sabbath rest of God is revealed.

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jeff

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Re: justification from "The Bible"
Reply #3 - Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 3:07pm

fair-minded know it all wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 6:32am:

Jesus was the only One that fullfilled the covenant with God. He was the true Israel of God. The True Seed of Abraham. He fullfilled the ceremonial law. And He kept the moral law the to the nth degree. Did He break the Sabbath commandment? I don't believe He did. He said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. He was the greatest Sabbath keeper. I agree though that after His death the true Sabbath rest of God is revealed.

Jesus said Himself that the Sabbath is created for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Further, he tells a man to pick up his mat and walk on the Sabbath. that is work.
his disciples picked food to eat on the Sabbath.

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fair-minded know it all LNF Representative3 Offline fair-minded conservative leaning independent Posts: 3,583 Gender:	Re: justification from "The Bible" Reply #4 - Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 7:34pm Quote: Jesus said Himself that the Sabbath is created for man, not man for the Sabbath. Further, he tells a man to pick up his mat and walk on the Sabbath. that is work. his disciples picked food to eat on the Sabbath. Is Jesus and His disciples disobeying the law, or the Pharisees interpretation?
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Mercy For All LNF Moderator The Writer's Croft LNF Bunker Offline Be completely alive until you're completely dead. Posts: 36,911 Gender:	Re: justification from "The Bible" Reply #5 - Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 10:28pm fair-minded know it all wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 7:34pm: Is Jesus and His disciples disobeying the law, or the Pharisees interpretation? Pharisees' interpretation.
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Cbax

Ex Member

Re: justification from "The Bible"
Reply #6 - Apr 3^rd, 2008 at 12:31pm

fair-minded know it all wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 6:32am:

Jesus was the only One that fullfilled the covenant with God. He was the true Israel of God. The True Seed of Abraham. He fullfilled the ceremonial law. And He kept the moral law the to the nth degree. Did He break the Sabbath commandment? I don't believe He did. He said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. He was the greatest Sabbath keeper. I agree though that after His death the true Sabbath rest of God is revealed.

..in that he was in the tomb over the sabbath and rose on Sunday morning (after the sabbath), thereby "keeping the sabbath (Saturday) in death? (I'm asking here...not trying to put words in your mouth, just wondering if this is what you meant.)

Also, I still have a hard time understanding how people perceive that the ten commandments are no longer "in effect" or pertinent. He said He came NOT to change the law, but to uphold it, and that not one jot or tittle should be changed. So how can we perceive that it is no longer valid?

I was raised strict SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) and the Sabbath is just something..I mean, it is the ONLY commandment where He said "REMEMBER" the "7th" day, not just ANY day, He specified...the 7th day. Where does the bible say, ok...all that came before no longer applies.

People who believed "Once saved , always saved " scare me...I believe you can lose your salvation,...by your own choice.

I am really confused on a lot of issues that I was raised to believe. Some things, jewelry, eating of pork, etc. I have come to terms with my own beliefs, but still working on some, to find out WHY I believe them, not just because that is how I was 'raised'.

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sister_in_Jesus

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Re: justification from "The Bible"
Reply #7 - Apr 4^th, 2008 at 2:41am

Quote:

People who believed "Once saved , always saved " scare me...

Why does my eternal security in Jesus Christ scare you?

Do you believe in Jesus' promise when He said in John 3:15, that everyone who believes (trusts) in Him has eternal life?

Paul was convinced that we are secure in Christ.
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39).

You didn't say how long you have been a christian.
I think you will find as you grow in Christ and study God's Word, you also will become secure in your salvation. It's a very peaceful place to be

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The difference you make in others will never be more than the difference Jesus Christ makes in you.

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jeff Ex Member	Re: justification from "The Bible" Reply #8 - Apr 4^th, 2008 at 8:39am Mercy For All wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 10:28pm: Pharisees' interpretation. most people would disagree with you. you'll find that people use any of the OT as directive and Law within the church today and likely the same was true in first century Judaism.
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Cbax

Ex Member

Re: justification from "The Bible"
Reply #9 - Apr 4^th, 2008 at 8:48am

I do believe in His promises...all of them. I truly do. I am absolutely a believer in His word, His Love and His promises...but I also believe that there are consequences to OUR actions.

I can't find it right off, but somewhere in the NT, there is a verse that says something along the lines of...Once one is saved and knows the glory of God, if they should backslide, there is not further redemtion for them.

I was baptized, I have always wanted and needed Jesus in my life, I can look back on my life and see without any shadow of a doubt, that He saved, rescued, aided (or whatever you want to call it) me in so many different occasions.
Even when I had removed myself from all that I believed, and lived a very bad life, He was always with me....this I know for certain. He still is with me today, I KNOW that, but would I be saved, should my life be cut short today? Doubtful, actually not really, I am pretty much convinced, that I would not be.

I know that outside "entities" cannot remove us from his love.....but I think that "I" can remove myself from his favor.
I think that "OSAS" gives people a false sense of security...they think that they can do whatever they want and still be saved because of that one time baptism, or declaration of faith.

When I read about the miracles He performed in the bible, when He confronted the men who wanted to stone the prostitute, and wrote their sins in the sand, He did not say to her, "OK, now go on about your way, and TRY not to do that again, or TRY to be good..."...NO, He told her, "Go, and SIN NO MORE".
He told his followers, "BE YE PERFECT, as your Father in heaven is perfect". He didnt say, be a good person, do what is right..do the best you can. He said we must be perfect. I am not and don't see how I ever will be.

I am not talking about murder, stealing, big stuff like that, But the little sins are the same as big ones in His eyes, He is not a respector of persons.

I don't know how to be perfect, or get perfect or stay perfect.

I have been raised in the church since the age of 4, went to all SDA private schools.

I have had people explain...When He died, He offered HIS BLOOD to cover me (If I accept His gift of salvation) and that now, When the FATHER looks at me, He does not see me in my sinful self, He sees me covered in the blood of HIS SON, and therefore perfect in His eyes.

I'm just not sure it works like that. Maybe it does.

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