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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereChristian Forum › Can Obama call himself a Christian?
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Obama call himself a Christian? (Read 26,556 times)
fair-minded know it all
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #300 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 7:48pm
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you think so?
i'm not convinced.  i look at soldiering at that time to be a thing of permissibility, not of sanction.


I'm glad this fallen world has soldiers, policemen, etc. And I'd feel much better having just and honest
Christian policemen, soldiers etc.

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Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight
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Mercy For All
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #301 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 8:32pm
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you think so?
i'm not convinced.  i look at soldiering at that time to be a thing of permissibility, not of sanction.


John the Baptist considered it legitimate enough to give advice on how to do it properly.  What is "sanctioned" in the Bible?  Farming?  Shepherding?  Building?  Investing?

Paul uses the soldier as a positive metaphor for the dedication of a Christian, along with the farmer, et. al. 

The Bible doesn't sanction web design, book publishing, sound recording, house appraising, and bank "telling" among many, many other "enterprises."  Are you sure you want to draw that line?
  

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fair-minded know it all
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #302 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 9:11pm
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John the Baptist considered it legitimate enough to give advice on how to do it properly.  What is "sanctioned" in the Bible?  Farming?  Shepherding?  Building?  Investing?

Paul uses the soldier as a positive metaphor for the dedication of a Christian, along with the farmer, et. al.  

The Bible doesn't sanction web design, book publishing, sound recording, house appraising, and bank "telling" among many, many other "enterprises."  Are you sure you want to draw that line?


Exactly. The fact that it was not only mentioned but general guidelines given for soldiering proves
it's an honorable career for a believer.
  

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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #303 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 11:40pm
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John the Baptist considered it legitimate enough to give advice on how to do it properly.  What is "sanctioned" in the Bible?  Farming?  Shepherding?  Building?  Investing?

Paul uses the soldier as a positive metaphor for the dedication of a Christian, along with the farmer, et. al.  

The Bible doesn't sanction web design, book publishing, sound recording, house appraising, and bank "telling" among many, many other "enterprises."  Are you sure you want to draw that line?


first, you need to take the message of Jesus and the general principals of Jesus throughout the NT.

second, let's take a look at that J the B passage:
Quote:
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?"
He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely - be content with your pay."
Lk. 3:14

John then addresses the common corruptions the people saw happening with soldiers.  soldiers, it should be noted, were local police serving to maintain peace with local governing bodies (such as magistrates, tax collection, etc.).  while their role as soldiers fighting in wars was common, it wasn't likely in that region.

soldiers, within the historic context, also were stuck in a bit of a bind.  they were forced to serve and sworn to serve.  thus, they serve or they die.  John tells them to do their work without corruption.
that in itself is revolutionary for soldiers.  also, his advice for non-Jews was practically scandalous.  he was saying that the message of repentence applied to them as well - Gentiles and oppressors.

finally, you still need to take this into consideration with Jesus' words to love your enemies.
so i guess you need to come to grips with how you define love.

then you need to ask yourself if you would apply that definition of love to, say, your mother-in-law (k... bad example).
  
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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #304 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 11:42pm
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Exactly. The fact that it was not only mentioned but general guidelines given for soldiering proves
it's an honorable career for a believer.

actually, it's a general guideline for civil peace keepers and there is a difference.

i'm not sure if John was preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but if you think this is a great proof-text supporting the way our soldiers and military operate today, all the power to you.
  
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #305 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 2:24am
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Exactly. The fact that it was not only mentioned but general guidelines given for soldiering proves
it's an honorable career for a believer.


I agree, being a soldier is an honorable job for a believer. And how do I know that? I am married to a retired Army officer. After becoming Christians, God called us out of the army. My husband had been in for 7 years and had just made the E-7 list when we left active duty. He had always been in the top of his class, excelled at everything he did and was even recommended for a full scholarship at West Point (until they found out he was married w/kids). The decision to get out was sought with much prayer and God made it clear what His will was for us. So, we cut ties with the Army and my husband attended Bible college and pastored a small baptist church for 3 years (total of 5 1/2 years out)...until...we felt God calling us back into the Army (which He also made clear to us) and He gave us the vision that the Army is a mission field. So that is the way we viewed the remaining military years, an opportunity to share Jesus with people around the world.
Should believers be in the military....yes, but only if God calls them to do so. But isn't that how we are to live....constantly seeking the will of God and then following His leading?
I can say with confidence that God absolutely thought it was ok for 'this' Christian family to be in the military. We knew several families who also felt that God had called them to the military mission field.
  

The difference you make in others will never be more than the difference Jesus Christ makes in you.
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fair-minded know it all
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #306 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 3:28am
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actually, it's a general guideline for civil peace keepers and there is a difference.


I would dare call police officers civil peace keepers. But now we're playing semantic games.


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i'm not sure if John was preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but if you think this is a great proof-text supporting the way our soldiers and military operate today, all the power to you.


I doubt the NT would have wasted time on that text if it had no importance/application today.

Also the NT makes it clear that kings/magistrates etc. have a duty and obligation to enforce law keeping.

Quote:
Romans 13: 1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


Of course this means that power authority and mandate should not be abused.

  

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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #307 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 8:18am
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I would dare call police officers civil peace keepers. But now we're playing semantic games.

you would?  cool.  because that's pretty much exactly what i was saying.


Quote:
I doubt the NT would have wasted time on that text if it had no importance/application today.

there is application but we need to understand the cultural context too.
soldiers then were not the same as soldiers today.  further, soldiers in that region were not the same as soldiers in other regions.

Quote:
Also the NT makes it clear that kings/magistrates etc. have a duty and obligation to enforce law keeping.

really?


Quote:
Of course this means that power authority and mandate should not be abused.

actually, it means no such thing.  the social context into which Paul was writing was exactly one of corruption and abuse - most specifically against Christians.

so he's telling people to be subject to rulers who were overtly hostile to them.
  
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #308 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 8:43am
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i'm not sure if John was preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but if you think this is a great proof-text supporting the way our soldiers and military operate today, all the power to you.


In one sentence you are making a backhanded generalized comment at soldiers today as well as setting up a false dilemma--that considering being a soldier to be a "legitimate enterprise" means that fair-minded know it all is using the text as a proof text to support whatever your criticism of the modern military is.

Soldiers were generally pretty brutal "back then."  Military operations were probably a lot dirtier "back then" without guidelines like the Geneva Convention.

And how do our soldiers and military operate today?  Why don't you ask MonsterMan?  I believe he's in the military.  What is it in particular that makes it an "illegitimate enterprise"?
  

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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #309 - Nov 26th, 2008 at 1:47pm
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In one sentence you are making a backhanded generalized comment at soldiers today as well as setting up a false dilemma--that considering being a soldier to be a "legitimate enterprise" means that fair-minded know it all is using the text as a proof text to support whatever your criticism of the modern military is.

Soldiers were generally pretty brutal "back then."  Military operations were probably a lot dirtier "back then" without guidelines like the Geneva Convention.

And how do our soldiers and military operate today?  Why don't you ask MonsterMan?  I believe he's in the military.  What is it in particular that makes it an "illegitimate enterprise"?


i would say it comes down to ideology and ideological constructs that necessitate military endeavors.
ultimately we are not sending out the military for colonialism (as the Romans were), bringing their ideology throughout the world whether the people wanted it or not - although this has been a large part of history.  we are more sending out the military supporting our ideology but more in a role of supporting political concerns (which is a sideways manner of saying that those who support the political oligarchy are being supported with our military).  that tends to take the form of "bringing stability" to certain areas of the world.

it also tends to be that resistence means war or some form of it, while lack of resistence or lack of resources towards the end of resistence means the ultimatum of quietude or slaughter.
that seems to be the extend of military action.

but even on a small scale, the ultimate job of a soldier is kill or be killed.  they jump into that situation knowing that such a situation could arise.  they are killing someone they have chosen as an enemy because they have willingly entered into that dilemma.

choice was not a part of the equation for Roman soldiers.
  
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