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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Obama call himself a Christian? (Read 26,456 times)
jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #320 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 1:05am
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Ah, but we are in a Representative government that is based on our voting.  When they were paying taxes under Roman rule, they didn't have quite the same input that we do in the government.

So, would you argue that as Christians we should only vote for and support those candidates who wish to abolish all spending on the military and police or any other venture which might lead to killing others?


we don't have that option, do we?
we don't even have the option of voting for a party that has a sense of fairness in foreign policy - foreign policy remains the same regardless of administration.
  
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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #321 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 1:13am
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Jeff,

So what is it that changed from the Old Testament to the New which makes all killing wrong vs only murder?

Or is it your argument that all killing is wrong period, based on both OT and NT?


i think even if you draw a line between killing and murder, we are still left with ideological killing which is most often not self-defence.  if you trace our military conflicts within the last half century to their root cause, it isn't just a matter of self defence at all.
so if you're correcting your mistakes with military reaction, you're treading in an area that is no longer morally gray.

the government is looking out for America's best interests (a fascinating concept if you look at what interests it has been acting on), fine.  but when that means subjugation and the negation of the value of others' lives, the government is then acting immorally.  that is the government we support.
when we also then actively participate in the military reaction, we become implicated in that corruption.
  
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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #322 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 1:16am
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and yes, i do see a contradiction in enjoying the benefits of a government that looks out for a country's best interests at apparently any cost while at the same time professing to uphold a "do unto others" morality (let alone a "love your enemies" one).

this is a component of the ideological complex that has been internalized.  and that's probably the aspect of ideology that we need to resist and/or reject in order to follow the mandate to love, as Jesus calls us to.
  
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MonsterMan the Sheepdog
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #323 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 1:26am
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we don't have that option, do we?
we don't even have the option of voting for a party that has a sense of fairness in foreign policy - foreign policy remains the same regardless of administration.


Of course we have that option, in several ways.

1.  We do not vote for or support anyone that supports a local police force, military force, or any other entity which would promote killing for any reason.

2.  If what you claim is true and Christians did follow along, we could even start our own party set on abolishing the military, police, and any other entity which would kill someone.

So, will you answer my question now?

Do you think that we as Christians should not support anything which would lead to killing others?  Such as Police, Military, or any form of self defense?

  

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MonsterMan the Sheepdog
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #324 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 1:30am
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i think even if you draw a line between killing and murder, we are still left with ideological killing which is most often not self-defence.  if you trace our military conflicts within the last half century to their root cause, it isn't just a matter of self defence at all.
so if you're correcting your mistakes with military reaction, you're treading in an area that is no longer morally gray.

the government is looking out for America's best interests (a fascinating concept if you look at what interests it has been acting on), fine.  but when that means subjugation and the negation of the value of others' lives, the government is then acting immorally.  that is the government we support.
when we also then actively participate in the military reaction, we become implicated in that corruption.


You didn't answer either question.

You claimed that killing is wrong according the the NT.  Not just murder, but killing.

In the OT God condoned killing, sent others to kill for His purpose and the language was pretty clear that murder is wrong, not killing.

So, what changed in the NT from the OT which made it so clear to you that now killing is wrong and not just murder?

  

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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #325 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 1:43am
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Of course we have that option, in several ways.

1.  We do not vote for or support anyone that supports a local police force, military force, or any other entity which would promote killing for any reason.

so who would that have been in the last election?

Quote:
2.  If what you claim is true and Christians did follow along, we could even start our own party set on abolishing the military, police, and any other entity which would kill someone.

could.  might be something to think about.
however, i would suggest that politics is so dirty that Christians wouldn't stand a chance.  i think a lot don't and that's why we don't hear from them very long.

Quote:
So, will you answer my question now?

Do you think that we as Christians should not support anything which would lead to killing others?  Such as Police, Military, or any form of self defense?

let's take a look at what Jesus says.  pretty good place to start considering this is supposed to be the Christian forum.

Jesus says to love your enemies.
do you love your enemies?

Jesus says that if you even have malice in your heart against someone, you're guilty of murder.
i guess it comes down to whether or not you can kill someone, loving them.

Jesus says that we are to lay our lives down for our friends.  He doesn't say kill for our friends.


so i think it comes down to whether or not you can justify killing someone or not.  if you can't you need to consider whether or not you're going to put yourself in a situation in which you might be required to kill.

as for your question on situation ethics, i think that if you have a concept of what your morals are before you're thrown into a morally questionable situation, you'll be able to deal with the situation as God gives you strength.
i think too often we open up situation ethics without God in mind.  that's a typical philosophical stream of thought.  philosophy operates under the primary assumption that there is no God; i don't think Christians need to.



so let's look at the questions with a theo-centric perspective (it may seem naive, but i'm seriously hoping we don't need police protection in heaven).
do we need the protection of police with God protecting us?  maybe not.
this was the perception of Paul in the first century.

  
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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #326 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 1:46am
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You didn't answer either question.

You claimed that killing is wrong according the the NT.  Not just murder, but killing.

In the OT God condoned killing, sent others to kill for His purpose and the language was pretty clear that murder is wrong, not killing.

So, what changed in the NT from the OT which made it so clear to you that now killing is wrong and not just murder?



we know that things were permitted in the OT that were not God's perfect will.
things changed in the NT... actually, everything changed.

consider that David was not permitted to build a temple for God because he had blood on his hands from war.  those were wars that were fought out of necessity (to defend his country, because God commanded him to, to defend himself, etc.).  however, he still had the stain of other people's blood on his hands.  that says a lot about killing - taking another person's life.
  
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #327 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 7:20am
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so let's look at the questions with a theo-centric perspective (it may seem naive, but i'm seriously hoping we don't need police protection in heaven).
do we need the protection of police with God protecting us?  maybe not.
this was the perception of Paul in the first century.



NO police will be needed in Heaven. But police that are just and that use force when necessary to arrest
the guilty and protect the innocent are necessary. Again, from Paul:


Quote:
Romans 13:

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.


This is what God demands of rulers. True most abuse it to an extent, but that doesn't negate
God's mandate.

  

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jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #328 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 9:30am
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NO police will be needed in Heaven. But police that are just and that use force when necessary to arrest
the guilty and protect the innocent are necessary. Again, from Paul:



This is what God demands of rulers. True most abuse it to an extent, but that doesn't negate
God's mandate.


you quote a passage that addresses Christians in Rome, but calls rulers them.

who are the them?  not the Christians, first of all.  they were one of the cruelest regimes ever - especially to Christians at the time, and not too fair to anyone who wasn't a citizen (which was very difficult status to come by).
so yes, Paul does write this, but he isn't endorsing Christians be a part of that political machine.
it wasn't even a situation of "most abusing" to an extent; it was a situation of the whole system being corrupt.  Caesar was already at the point of being considered a god.

consider also who else have been agents of God:  the Assyrians, the Babylonians - both of which were also cruel to Israelites.  i don't when the prisoners were being dragged to Assyria they were thinking, "i think i should join these people since they're ministers of God."
  
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #329 - Nov 29th, 2008 at 12:54pm
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you quote a passage that addresses Christians in Rome, but calls rulers them.

who are the them?  not the Christians, first of all.  they were one of the cruelest regimes ever - especially to Christians at the time, and not too fair to anyone who wasn't a citizen (which was very difficult status to come by).
so yes, Paul does write this, but he isn't endorsing Christians be a part of that political machine.
it wasn't even a situation of "most abusing" to an extent; it was a situation of the whole system being corrupt.  Caesar was already at the point of being considered a god.

consider also who else have been agents of God:  the Assyrians, the Babylonians - both of which were also cruel to Israelites.  i don't when the prisoners were being dragged to Assyria they were thinking, "i think i should join these people since they're ministers of God."


You're just shrugging of a very clear text.
  

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