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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereChristian Forum › Can Obama call himself a Christian?
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Obama call himself a Christian? (Read 26,379 times)
jeff
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #330 - Nov 30th, 2008 at 12:53am
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You're just shrugging of a very clear text.

well... yeah.  i suppose you could surmise from the text that Paul was referring to Rome, including Caesar who considered himself god, as God's ministers.
so we should promote that kind of regime because they were ministers of God.

same with Persian regimes, Assyria and Babylon.

you're shrugging off the historical context of what Paul was saying and to whom he was saying it.
maybe because it's a valid challenge of what you've assumed the text to mean.  it really isn't saying what you seem to think it's saying.
  
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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #331 - Nov 30th, 2008 at 2:55pm
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well... yeah.  i suppose you could surmise from the text that Paul was referring to Rome, including Caesar who considered himself god, as God's ministers.
so we should promote that kind of regime because they were ministers of God.

same with Persian regimes, Assyria and Babylon.

you're shrugging off the historical context of what Paul was saying and to whom he was saying it.
maybe because it's a valid challenge of what you've assumed the text to mean.  it really isn't saying what you seem to think it's saying.


But then, are Christians to absolve themselves of participation in any kind of temporal order or authority?  Its "dirty job so someone else can do it"?
  

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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #332 - Nov 30th, 2008 at 3:55pm
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so who would that have been in the last election?


No one.  Once again, we don't have to vote for anyone.  Or, we could start our very own party bent on the erradication of the Police, military, and any other thing which would condone killing.

And you STILL did not answer the question. 

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could.  might be something to think about.
however, i would suggest that politics is so dirty that Christians wouldn't stand a chance.  i think a lot don't and that's why we don't hear from them very long.


Politics wouldn't be so dirty if all the Christians followed along with what you claim to be true.

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let's take a look at what Jesus says.  pretty good place to start considering this is supposed to be the Christian forum.

Jesus says to love your enemies.
do you love your enemies?


Yes, but is the Hyperbole Jesus uses here a clear mandate for all Christians that killing is wrong?

The type of enemy Jesus is most likely talking about is not a mortal one, rather those who oppose Christians and Christianity.  Do we hate those who disagree with us?  No.  We love them.

That doesn't mean that when they come to rape your wife, molest your daughters, and then plan on killing your family in front of your eyes you sit there "loving" them instead of fulfulling your obligations to take care of your family.

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Jesus says that if you even have malice in your heart against someone, you're guilty of murder.
i guess it comes down to whether or not you can kill someone, loving them.


Sure you can.  The definition of Malice has little to do with killing someone in self defense.  It is the preplanned intent to do so.  Almost an "evil intent."

One doesn't have an "evil intent" when defending his loved ones or others from harm.

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Jesus says that we are to lay our lives down for our friends.  He doesn't say kill for our friends.


True.  However, Jesus doesn't say to eat popcorn and watch movies.  We are not talking about Jesus giving us permission somewhere to kill someone, we are talking about your claim that all killing is wrong regardless of the circumstances.

What you have failed to show so far is anything from the NT which makes this so clear as you claim it to be.

  

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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #333 - Nov 30th, 2008 at 4:43pm
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we know that things were permitted in the OT that were not God's perfect will.
things changed in the NT... actually, everything changed.


I agree, much about our relationship with God changed after Christ's death and ressurection.

However, that was not my question.

You are making the argument that all killing is wrong, regardless of circumstance.  My question to you was how do you reconcile where the NT clearly shows this as compared to the OT?

Quote:
consider that David was not permitted to build a temple for God because he had blood on his hands from war.  those were wars that were fought out of necessity (to defend his country, because God commanded him to, to defend himself, etc.).  however, he still had the stain of other people's blood on his hands.  that says a lot about killing - taking another person's life.


The verse says:

"3 But God said to me, 'You shall not build a house for My name because you are a man of war and have shed blood.'"

We can take many things from this verse.  Te whole story even.  However, it is like this (and I do steal this from someone else, but don't remember where)

Imagine you are going to a black tie dinner.  On the way you help someone drowing in a mud pit.  Now you are covered in mud and filthy.  Do you still go to dinner looking like that?  If you did, would they accept you or ask that you leave?

Most likely you would feel out of place at dinner and would not go and if you did they would ask you to leave.

Does that mean they don't condone your saving someone and that your guilt of not going to dinner should be over the fact that you saved someone?

Of course not.

It simply didn't fit well for God's temple of peace to be built by someone who was associated with so much blood shed.  Even though that blood shed was in His name.

This is hardly proof that killing is wrong or that ANY killing under any circumstance is wrong.

We are talking about a man of war here building a temple of peace.
  

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Re: Can Obama call himself a Christian?
Reply #334 - Nov 30th, 2008 at 6:08pm
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It simply didn't fit well for God's temple of peace to be built by someone who was associated with so much blood shed.  Even though that blood shed was in His name.

This is hardly proof that killing is wrong or that ANY killing under any circumstance is wrong.

We are talking about a man of war here building a temple of peace.  


Whatever the purpose of God's mandate for David not to build the temple we know it has nothing
to do with David being in anyway morally inferior to a Peace time king. Could it be that God was
talking about the murder of Bethsheba's husband! Maybe not, but in anycase David's bloodshed
was done in his zeal for God and was mandated by God.
  

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