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fair-minded know it all
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #40 - Dec 8th, 2008 at 8:55pm
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and the most direct and recent revelation of God to humanity is God Himself in the flesh. †and Jesus defines God as love.

if that's your idea of "Santa Clause" then i guess the Bible agrees with those people. †i, however, don't see that as a sort of Santa at all.



Let's not forget, some of the most frightful warnings about the final judgement and God's
retributional justice come from the lips of Christ Himself.
  

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jeff
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #41 - Dec 9th, 2008 at 12:47am
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Let's not forget, some of the most frightful warnings about the final judgement and God's
retributional justice come from the lips of Christ Himself.

the end of the age judgment is something else all together.  consider that that the relationship in Christ is right now and available to everyone - that's the outpouring of God and who He is.  consider that this relationship was His purpose from the start and couldn't be ultimately thwarted.

since we don't know anything about the final judgment, it's impossible to comment on it right now.
if it were an event of justice, it would be exactly impossible for anyone to make it through that judgment.  consider that if you even have malice towards another person, you're guilty of murder.  Jesus says this.  i don't believe His point here is condemnation, however.
  
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fair-minded know it all
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #42 - Dec 9th, 2008 at 7:02am
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the end of the age judgment is something else all together. †consider that that the relationship in Christ is right now and available to everyone - that's the outpouring of God and who He is. †consider that this relationship was His purpose from the start and couldn't be ultimately thwarted.

since we don't know anything about the final judgment, it's impossible to comment on it right now.
if it were an event of justice, it would be exactly impossible for anyone to make it through that judgment. †consider that if you even have malice towards another person, you're guilty of murder. †Jesus says this. †i don't believe His point here is condemnation, however.



I don't believe His point is condemnation either. It's a warning cry. We are given enough
information about the final judgement to know it will be harsh.
  

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jeff
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #43 - Dec 9th, 2008 at 2:38pm
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You're getting hung up on semantics.

Hebs 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Throughout scripture many attributes are used to describe God. Love and Mercy are my favorites but
there are others that say God is this and God is that. One does not negate the other. They are all
true. " I am a jealous God", " Lord is the avenger " there a long list where God is described by the
prophets or describes Himself.

i don't think this is an issue about semantics at all.
i'm not identifying one thing and redefining it or assigning meaning to a like term.

God identifies Himself as love.
He doesn't identify Himself as mercy or justice.

do you think that "consuming fire" in the Hebrews passage is metaphoric?

God judges our sin, burns it away (a metaphor in both the New and Old Testament).
  
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #44 - Dec 9th, 2008 at 5:41pm
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You know, for all your intricfate ex cogitations one would think you people actually pay attention to the scriptures.

Why don't you read the Parable of the Wheat and Tares properly so as to appreciate that the children of the wicked one are discernable by sight alone?
  
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sister_in_Jesus
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #45 - Dec 9th, 2008 at 8:34pm
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no, these are not attributes, they are natural functions of God's nature that is Love.

oh, and perfect is not an element of character, it's an element of the divine, just as righteous is.


again, that is not what God is, but an attribute of His interaction with people.

i don't recall a verse in the Bible that reads, "God is wrath."
correct me if i'm wrong. † Undecided

the covenant was renewed with the perfect covenant. †what the law of the first could never do, the second could. †the first was about obedience, distance, parameters, regulation, and demonstrating a need. †the second is about relationship - something that God wanted from the beginning.

His holiness demands righteousness, not justice.
if His holiness demands justice, we would never be able to be in relationship with Him.

you are correct, however, in saying that Jesus demonstrated the love of God, His attribute.

really?
i don't think, actually, that love is an attribute of God's character. †rather, i think it's more the nature of His being.
everything that Jesus did is a result of love for humanity. †if you see Jesus, according the NT, you've seen God. †seems pretty clear to me.

i think this may seem offensive to some people because they want to have a sense of closure to what they see around them and they want God to deliver the death blow. †however, i think that God is looking for redemption for people, not their destruction. †that was His purpose from the start. †if He wasn't, i don't think He would have bothered coming and dying for humanity.


I think they are. Lets look at the definition of attribute.
Attribute = A quality or characteristic inherent in or ascribed to someone or something.
Inherent = existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute: an inherent distrust of strangers.

Arenít the things which I have named †the personal qualities which make up the person of God, His personality, His character?

The things I listed arenít a part of God, they are the pure essence of †God..
A part of Him isnít love, ALL of His being is love, ALL of His being is just, ALL of His being is merciful, etc.

It is †who He is and †we donít fully understand that. God has revealed this to us through scripture.

Iím not sure why it seems to offend †you when I say God is just and because of His holiness demands justice. God is the one who has said these things about Himself. Sometimes we try to look at things from our Ďhumaní point of view and that view is very limited.

I think some believers donít want to talk about those attributes of God (jealousness, vengeance, wrath) because they think non-believers will be turned-off by such talk or perhaps they are embarrassed by it. But the truth is that we are not the ones who bring people to God, it is the Holy Spiritís work and He can use any verse to convict - even the tough ones. Smiley
« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2008 at 9:52pm by sister_in_Jesus »  

The difference you make in others will never be more than the difference Jesus Christ makes in you.
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sister_in_Jesus
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #46 - Dec 9th, 2008 at 9:48pm
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actually, i don't think that's quite what you said.

Actually, that is what I said before, I posted the parable about Jesus separating the sheep from the goats in reply #17. If I didnít believe it, I wouldnít have posted †it.

Quote:
i replied that He will judge everyone. †your question seemed pointedly to imply that Jesus will not judge believers.

You're mistaken, I've implied no such thing.

Quote:
do you deny that Jesus will judge believers?
if so, you deny God's truth.

No, I don't deny it, I posted about the sheep and goats. That should help you understand what I believe. Those who accept Christ's sacrifice for their sins will not be separated from Him, those who don't - will be. Believers will be judged and rewarded only for what they have or have not done. That should clear up any misconceptions you may have had about what I believe. My beliefs are based on what God's Word says.

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(see how unfriendly that sounds when it's put to you? †yeah... try not to do that. †it seems like a question to polarize the argument and marginalize people from the discussion by labelling them as "non-Christian")

That question didn't bother me, I could have answered it with a simple yes or no. I didn't realize you were so sensitive and you probably shouldn't judge my intent wrongly (try not to do that †Wink ), it was simply a question to find out what you believe (forum?).
  

The difference you make in others will never be more than the difference Jesus Christ makes in you.
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #47 - Dec 9th, 2008 at 10:32pm
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Angolmois wrote on Dec 9th, 2008 at 5:41pm:
You know, for all your intricfate ex cogitations one would think you people actually pay attention to the scriptures.

Why don't you read the Parable of the Wheat and Tares properly so as to appreciate that the children of the wicked one are discernable by sight alone?


Are you sure? †Then why didn't the angels remove them before the judgment?

And what do you think is the distinguishing characteristic?  Skin color? Huh
  

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fair-minded know it all
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #48 - Dec 10th, 2008 at 8:19pm
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i don't think this is an issue about semantics at all.
i'm not identifying one thing and redefining it or assigning meaning to a like term.

God identifies Himself as love.


John said God is love. By the logic in some of the above post that doesn't count
because it wasn't God himself saying it in the 1st person.


Quote:
do you think that "consuming fire" in the Hebrews passage is metaphoric?

God judges our sin, burns it away (a metaphor in both the New and Old Testament).


Our (believer's sins) are burned on the cross during the judgment that was poured
out upon Jesus. God will be a consuming fire at the final judgment to the unrepentant.


sister_in_Jesus wrote on Dec 9th, 2008 at 8:34pm:
I think some believers donít want to talk about those attributes of God (jealousness, vengeance, wrath) because they think non-believers will be turned-off by such talk or perhaps they are embarrassed by it. But the truth is that we are not the ones who bring people to God, it is the Holy Spiritís work and He can use any verse to convict - even the tough ones. Smiley


Very true. We don't have to gloss over the attributes of God. As many people are turned of
by the concept of a celestial Santa Claus as by the untamed God of scripture.
  

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fair-minded know it all
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Re: I hate them with a perfect hatred!
Reply #49 - Dec 10th, 2008 at 8:43pm
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Angolmois wrote on Dec 9th, 2008 at 5:41pm:
You know, for all your intricfate ex cogitations one would think you people actually pay attention to the scriptures.

Why don't you read the Parable of the Wheat and Tares properly so as to appreciate that the children of the wicked one are discernable by sight alone?



Huh?
  

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