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Poll Poll
Question: What/Who Created The Federal Government?

The States    
  18 (50.0%)
The Constitution    
  12 (33.3%)
Other    
  6 (16.7%)




Total votes: 36
« Created by: Shooterman on: Mar 3rd, 2009 at 2:09pm »

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What/Who Created The Federal Government? (Read 26,663 times)
Senator_Hatrack
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #170 - Mar 21st, 2009 at 9:11am
 
Stukov wrote on Mar 21st, 2009 at 6:47am:
The Fed has power to lay and collect taxes, but that does not mean the IRS is constitutional.

If you don't think the IRS is Constitutional challenge it in court. Bring a civil suit to challenge the Constitutionality of the IRS.
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Stukov
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #171 - Mar 22nd, 2009 at 1:31am
 
Quote:
If you don't think the IRS is Constitutional challenge it in court. Bring a civil suit to challenge the Constitutionality of the IRS.


It has been done if I recall, been found to be constitutional.  However, that was done by a private citizen.  That is not the same as a State passing a law barring the IRS from working within the state.
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Senator_Hatrack
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #172 - Mar 22nd, 2009 at 1:51am
 
That is because no state will even try to ban the IRS. The states are too dependent on revenue sharing from our US government.
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Stukov
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #173 - Mar 22nd, 2009 at 2:03am
 
Quote:
That is because no state will even try to ban the IRS. The states are too dependent on revenue sharing from our US government.


Yes, some are.  That doesn't mean they could do it.  They could ban the IRS tax collection and do all State collections and pass whatever money they are required to to the federal government.
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Senator_Hatrack
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #174 - Mar 22nd, 2009 at 12:23pm
 
Stukov wrote on Mar 22nd, 2009 at 2:03am:
Yes, some are.  That doesn't mean they could do it.  They could ban the IRS tax collection and do all State collections and pass whatever money they are required to to the federal government.

Thank you proving that the states are not sovereign. If a state government is required to do something by our Federal government then it is not a sovereign state. A sovereign state cannot be required to do anything by another state.
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #175 - Mar 22nd, 2009 at 1:55pm
 
Apon creation of the constitution, The States had complete Sovereignity. The states where its own independant goverment. The claberation of all the states was supposed to be limited and used for only major issues of concern.

Problem was consistant debates of this process and ralling protests against each other. One of the major debates was indeed infact that a law created by this calaberation could be rightly ignored by the states that oppose it.

Issue is when did all this change exactly ? its scattered.. most prominent reference is 1819:

"The people of the United States have seen fit to divide sovereignty, and to establish a complex system. They have conferred certain powers on the state governments, and certain other powers on the national government. [DUAL SOVEREIGNTY]

As it was easy to forsee that questions must arise between these governments thus constituted, it became of great moment to determine, upon what principle these questions should be decided, and who should decide them. The constitution, therefore, declares, that the constitution itself, and the laws passed in pursuance of its provisions, shall be the supreme law of the land, and shall control all state legislation and state constitutions, which may be incompatible therewith; and it confides to this court the ultimate power of deciding all questions arising under the constitution and laws of the United States.

The laws of the United States, then, made in pursuance of the constitution, are to be the supreme law of the land, anything in the laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding...

...The powers delegated to the state sovereignties were to be exercised by themselves, not by a distinct and independent sovereignty, created by themselves. To the formation of a league, such as was the confederation, the state sovereignties were certainly competent. But when,'in order to form a more perfect union;' it was deemed necessary to change this alliance into an effective government, possessing great and sovereign powers, and acting directly on the people, the necessity of referring it to the people, and of deriving its powers directly from them, was felt and acknowledged by all. The government of the Union, then (whatever may be the influence of this fact on the case), is, emphatically and truly, a government of the people. In form, and in substance, it emanates from them. Its powers are granted by them, and are to be exerciased directly on them, and for their benefit."

McCulloch v. Maryland, Chief Justice Marshall.

Some could say one of the first greatest oversights to the constitution.
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"Because the plot thickens everyday &&and the pieces of my puzzle keep crumblin' away &&But I know, there's a picture beneath" -Patton
 
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Running Deer
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #176 - Mar 25th, 2009 at 7:23pm
 
Stukov wrote on Mar 21st, 2009 at 6:47am:
The Fed has power to lay and collect taxes, but that does not mean the IRS is constitutional.


"[Congress shall have Power t]o make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."  U.S. Const., Art. I, Sec. 8.

If Congress has been granted a power, it has also been granted the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying out that power.  It stands to reason, then, if Congress has the power to lay and collect taxes, it has the power to create a "Department or Officer" to carry that power out.  That Department or Officer is the IRS.  It's almost certainly constitutional.
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"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently.  Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
 
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Shooterman
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #177 - Apr 4th, 2009 at 11:19pm
 
As this thread has been led off on several tangents, and it, of course, in my estimation, would be very difficult to resurrect the purpose thereof, I will simply say;

Everyone should obtain a copy and read 'Is Secession Treason' by Albert Bledsoe and edited by Paul Dennis Sporer.  The book was originally published in 1866, basically immediately after The Civil War. The time element was very much closer to the time of the founding, and in my estimation, the research was very well done. I am only through eleven chapters, but so far, Mr Bledsoe has pilloried Senator Daniel Webster and Chief Justice Storey, taking them to task for the error of their ways.

He has first, proven the States acceded to the new government. He has, as well, laid to rest whether the Constitution is a compact among the states, and has shown exactly what was meant by 'We The People' at the time of the Constitutional Convention of 1787.

He has also shown evidence of the expressed reason for the ratification by the nine states, what was meant by it, and that, as we have touched on, the states that did not ratify would not be members of the new union and not forced to join. He expressly deals with the question of the original sovereignty of the states, their continued sovereignty, and by acceding to the union, could by definition, secede from such.

I highly recommend a reading of the book.
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We have computers and Boeing 747s because the North won the Civil War- Thomas Paine December 2010&&&&......&&&&
We should not fall into the trap of taking ourselves too seriously.  Shooterman 1935-  
&&&&The United States is entirely [354 U.S. 1, 6] a creature of the Constitution.
 
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Senator_Hatrack
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #178 - Apr 5th, 2009 at 1:18pm
 
The opinions of Mr. Albert Bledsoe on secession are biased in favor of the racism inherent in the formation of the Confederate States of America. If one reads the constitution of the CSA and the declarations of secession of the states that made up the CSA you will see that the primary reason for the creation of the CSA was to protect, promote and to propagate the institution of slavery. The states that created the CSA did not do so because of their strong belief in states rights. They created the CSA for the primary, if not sole, purpose of protecting the economic system based on slavery. Therefore Mr. Bledsoe's arguments for secesssion are arguments for the continuation of slavery.

http://www.math.virginia.edu/MathHistory/bledsoe.htm
Quote:
In 1848, Bledsoe was appointed Professor of Mathematics at the University of Mississippi, a chair he resigned in 1854 for the one left vacant at the University of Virginia by the death of Edward Courtenay. While at Virginia, he wrote "An Essay on Liberty and Slavery" (1856), in which he justified secession as a constitutional right and slavery as a moral right sanctioned by the Bible. At the outbreak of the Civil War in 1861, he resigned his chair and joined the Confederate Army at the rank of colonel. Bledsoe was soon appointed Assistant Secretary of War by Jefferson Davis and so saw little action on the battlefield. He was sent to London for the purpose of researching various historical problems relating to the North-South conflict, as well as of guiding British public opinion in favor of the Confederate cause.

Just as no one would now use the Bible to justify slavery, as Mr. Bledsoe did, to use his arguments for secession is wrong. For if Mr. Bledsoe is right about secession than he is right about how the Bible sanctions slavery. Does anyone here want to try and use the Bible to sanction slavery?
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Shooterman
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Re: What/Who Created The Federal Government?
Reply #179 - Apr 5th, 2009 at 7:42pm
 
Quote:
The opinions of Mr. Albert Bledsoe on secession are biased in favor of the racism inherent in the formation of the Confederate States of America. If one reads the constitution of the CSA and the declarations of secession of the states that made up the CSA you will see that the primary reason for the creation of the CSA was to protect, promote and to propagate the institution of slavery. The states that created the CSA did not do so because of their strong belief in states rights. They created the CSA for the primary, if not sole, purpose of protecting the economic system based on slavery. Therefore Mr. Bledsoe's arguments for secesssion are arguments for the continuation of slavery.

http://www.math.virginia.edu/MathHistory/bledsoe.htm
Just as no one would now use the Bible to justify slavery, as Mr. Bledsoe did, to use his arguments for secession is wrong. For if Mr. Bledsoe is right about secession than he is right about how the Bible sanctions slavery. Does anyone here want to try and use the Bible to sanction slavery?


I'm not surprised, SH. Old Bledsoe was such a sorry SOB, any good Yankee Fella sure wouldn't be caught dead reading his works, eh?

Grin
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We have computers and Boeing 747s because the North won the Civil War- Thomas Paine December 2010&&&&......&&&&
We should not fall into the trap of taking ourselves too seriously.  Shooterman 1935-  
&&&&The United States is entirely [354 U.S. 1, 6] a creature of the Constitution.
 
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