Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment! Algorithm free!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereChristian Forum › the most insidious movie i've seen
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) the most insidious movie i've seen (Read 5,228 times)
jeff
Ex Member


Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #20 - Apr 19th, 2009 at 12:04am
Print Post  
Quote:
Doubt?


is the movie Doubt??

or is it Doubt?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fair-minded know it all
LNF Party Leader
***
Offline

fair-minded conservative
leaning independent

Posts: 4,851
Joined: Feb 17th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #21 - Apr 19th, 2009 at 6:46am
Print Post  
Quote:
is the movie Doubt??

or is it Doubt?



Yep, that's the one. Haven't seen it yet.
  

Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rolling Boyle
Ex Member


Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #22 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 2:23pm
Print Post  
Quote:
i finally got around to watching The Golden Compass this past weekend and it was a bit different than i thought it would be.  my pre-watching impression was that it is a movie that has a strong anti-Catholic bent to it - nothing wholly new considering the popularity of Dan Brown novels hitting the big screen.  for example, the imposing and malevolent oligarchy of the Magisterium is an acute reference to the Roman Catholic branch of the church that deals with teaching authority.

however, it isn't simply an anti-Catholic narrative, but a highly subversive and insidious attack on theism.  this attack is evident within the first few minutes of the movie when the narrator informs the viewer that this story takes place in a different, parallel universe in which people don't have souls inside them, but souls that travel with them all their lives in the form of animal companions (much like a familiar to traditional witches).  these animals are called demons (or, in the subtitles, daemons - a traditional spelling of demons).

lead characters of the film legitimize the challenging of rules - not some rules, but rules in general (of course there is an inate contradiction to their challenge that is never answered in the narrative, but that goes without saying since it is also a contradiction common to people who are against rules generally).

further, the witch who is the protectorate of the protagonist in the movie is called a witch, a sybill, and is named something like Seriph.  thus, the narrative creates the parallel of witches and angels.

consider now if a child were to watch this.  clearly the Magisterium in the movie is tyrannical and more - evil, in its dealings with people.  they are trying to, and in cases succeeding, in disconnecting children from their souls - their daemons.
how would a conversation about the narrative sound and how would that translate in the mind of a child?
how would Christian or any theistic teaching follow when we now have to redefine what demon, witch and rules mean?

I'm curious to know how one separates "anti-Catholic" from "anti-theist." How can there not be some overlap?

Moreover the Magisterium is portrayed as an organization with none of the overt trappings of religion, as I recall (it's been a while since I last watched the movie); it more resembles a secular government, with as many or more oligarchical overtones as theological ones. There are theological threads within the Magisterium's bundle of concerns, to be sure: worries about the mystical properties and influence of "dust," for example. But the close mating in the movie of Magisterium policies to scientific research is distinctly untheistic unless read as a sinister perversion of science by the powers that be, whatever form they may take.

On the challenging of rules: first, challenging rules is only part of growing up. Second, and more broadly within the context of the story as it links to our own reality, the challenging of established rules (especially where science in our world broke free from "revealed truths" to discover and explore a universe far stranger and more wonderful, awe-inspiring and majestic than any human scripture has ever hinted at) speaks to an ongoing process of collective social maturation beyond individual growth. If this is "anti-theist" then social progress itself is "anti-theist."

I'd say more, but now I think I have to go rewatch the movie to make sure what I've said already is accurate.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mercy For All
LNF Moderator
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

Generally, generalizations
are always false.

Posts: 43,785
Joined: Aug 7th, 2004
Gender: Male
Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #23 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 2:51pm
Print Post  
Quote:
I'm curious to know how one separates "anti-Catholic" from "anti-theist." How can there not be some overlap?

Moreover the Magisterium is portrayed as an organization with none of the overt trappings of religion, as I recall (it's been a while since I last watched the movie); it more resembles a secular government, with as many or more oligarchical overtones as theological ones. There are theological threads within the Magisterium's bundle of concerns, to be sure: worries about the mystical properties and influence of "dust," for example. But the close mating in the movie of Magisterium policies to scientific research is distinctly untheistic unless read as a sinister perversion of science by the powers that be, whatever form they may take.

On the challenging of rules: first, challenging rules is only part of growing up. Second, and more broadly within the context of the story as it links to our own reality, the challenging of established rules (especially where science in our world broke free from "revealed truths" to discover and explore a universe far stranger and more wonderful, awe-inspiring and majestic than any human scripture has ever hinted at) speaks to an ongoing process of collective social maturation beyond individual growth. If this is "anti-theist" then social progress itself is "anti-theist."

I'd say more, but now I think I have to go rewatch the movie to make sure what I've said already is accurate.


Are you aware of the intention of the author of the novel?
  

Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rolling Boyle
Ex Member


Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #24 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 3:46pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Are you aware of the intention of the author of the novel?

These are books for young people. How many of them are aware of the author's intentions? Do the characterizations of souls as spirits taking the shape of animals reveal those intentions? The Harry Potter books feature witches and warlocks, and spirit horrors (the Dementers) that are plainly demons - albeit captive demons, pressed into serving the ruling mages of the world behind the doorway at Platform 9 3/4. Do the children who dote on Rowling's books delve for her underlying intentions? There will be plenty of time to discuss intentions. Let's deal with what appears on the written page first.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mercy For All
LNF Moderator
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

Generally, generalizations
are always false.

Posts: 43,785
Joined: Aug 7th, 2004
Gender: Male
Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #25 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 3:57pm
Print Post  
Quote:
These are books for young people. How many of them are aware of the author's intentions? Do the characterizations of souls as spirits taking the shape of animals reveal those intentions? The Harry Potter books feature witches and warlocks, and spirit horrors (the Dementers) that are plainly demons - albeit captive demons, pressed into serving the ruling mages of the world behind the doorway at Platform 9 3/4. Do the children who dote on Rowling's books delve for her underlying intentions? There will be plenty of time to discuss intentions. Let's deal with what appears on the written page first.


No.  Let's not.  C.S. Lewis intended his Narnia series to be biblically allegorical.  A great many young readers might not perceive that.  Any adult reader familiar with stories of Christianity would.  In fact, it would be safe to say that you couldn't properly understand the Narnia stories without having some understanding of Christianity.

Also relevant is the fact that the story in question is part of a trilogy and was never intended as a "standalone"--and so it appears within a greater context.
  

Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rolling Boyle
Ex Member


Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #26 - Apr 21st, 2009 at 11:25am
Print Post  
Quote:
No.  Let's not.  C.S. Lewis intended his Narnia series to be biblically allegorical.  A great many young readers might not perceive that.  Any adult reader familiar with stories of Christianity would.  In fact, it would be safe to say that you couldn't properly understand the Narnia stories without having some understanding of Christianity.

Also relevant is the fact that the story in question is part of a trilogy and was never intended as a "standalone"--and so it appears within a greater context.

Exactly - a great many readers who have never been fed the tidbit that the Narnia series is an extended Christian allegory, could read the entire set cover to cover and never understand they they had just read anything other than a series of ripping good adventure yarns set in a magical land full of talking animals and forest deities borrowed from Greek myth. That is the point: people who don't know Lewis's intent won't necessarily see through to it even though they read the books. Similarly, those who don't know Pullman's intent for the "His Dark Materials" trilogy won't necessarily read the series as anti-Catholic or anti-theist. That's why I want to discuss what's on the page before we begin discussing author intentions that may very well never rise to the reader's attention unless he hears about them from a source other than the books themselves.

Not everyone reads like a literary critic, searching for encompassing metaphors and subtle allegories - certainly not the first time one reads a story, at least. I had to reread "The Lord of the Rings" at least three or four times, and was well into my late 20s, before the tale stopped being just an amazingly literate fantasy story and began revealing allegorical connections to profound themes concerned with modernity, religion, and Christianity. How many young people ignorant of "the author's intentions," one wonders, will read the "His Dark Materials" series as many times as it takes to gradually recognize specifically anti-Catholic sentiments, not even to say "anti-theism" ones?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mercy For All
LNF Moderator
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

Generally, generalizations
are always false.

Posts: 43,785
Joined: Aug 7th, 2004
Gender: Male
Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #27 - Apr 21st, 2009 at 12:19pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Exactly - a great many readers who have never been fed the tidbit that the Narnia series is an extended Christian allegory, could read the entire set cover to cover and never understand they they had just read anything other than a series of ripping good adventure yarns set in a magical land full of talking animals and forest deities borrowed from Greek myth. That is the point: people who don't know Lewis's intent won't necessarily see through to it even though they read the books. Similarly, those who don't know Pullman's intent for the "His Dark Materials" trilogy won't necessarily read the series as anti-Catholic or anti-theist. That's why I want to discuss what's on the page before we begin discussing author intentions that may very well never rise to the reader's attention unless he hears about them from a source other than the books themselves.

Not everyone reads like a literary critic, searching for encompassing metaphors and subtle allegories - certainly not the first time one reads a story, at least. I had to reread "The Lord of the Rings" at least three or four times, and was well into my late 20s, before the tale stopped being just an amazingly literate fantasy story and began revealing allegorical connections to profound themes concerned with modernity, religion, and Christianity. How many young people ignorant of "the author's intentions," one wonders, will read the "His Dark Materials" series as many times as it takes to gradually recognize specifically anti-Catholic sentiments, not even to say "anti-theism" ones?


Well, I would be interested to hear jeff's take on your response, since his criticism was not a typical knee-jerk "this is anti-Christian" (a la Harry Potter, The Last Temptation of Christ, or whatever).
  

Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rolling Boyle
Ex Member


Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #28 - Apr 21st, 2009 at 1:18pm
Print Post  
I'd be interested to hear it too. It has to be raised as a possibility that when one goes into the experience pre-cocked with an expectation to see anti-theistic and/or anti-Catholic elements (whether in reading the books, watching the movie, or both), the reaction to any perception of such themes will be especially strong.
« Last Edit: Apr 21st, 2009 at 1:42pm by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Triple_R
LNF Representative
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 1,322
Joined: Mar 30th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: the most insidious movie i've seen
Reply #29 - Apr 21st, 2009 at 6:18pm
Print Post  
A few general points...

1) It's perhaps possible to miss the Christian allegories in some of Lewis' 7 Chronicles of Narnia. I don't recall the very 1st (chronologically) of Lewis' 7 books being overtly Christian, per se - though it promoted certain Christian values.

However...

"The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" is so straightforward and obvious in its Aslan/Jesus analogy, that you'd have to be completely oblivious of Christianity as a whole to not notice that it's heavily related to the Gospel accounts of Jesus Christ. Since Aslan is a major protagonist in the book, and presented as a God-like figure, it's quite clear that The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is promoting Christianity.

The final of the 7 books is also a very clear-cut analogy to the Book of Revelations. Again, only a person completely unfamiliar with Christianity could fail to notice it.

So, anybody who reads all 7 books has to notice the very pro-Christian intent/themes unless they honestly don't know what Christianity itself is.


2) I could be mistaken, but I don't believe that the Harry Potter books are intended to promote a particular religion, or view on religion. Harry Potter is fairly standard fare fantasy - if anything, it's pretty low on the "epic" scale of fantasy, paling in comparison to the more grand stage in books like Lord of the Rings.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereChristian Forum › the most insidious movie i've seen

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
A1 News Page
David Limbaugh
Political Frog
Conservatives Directory
President Trump Approval Poll
Presidential Party Election Poll
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules