Liberty News Forum - Political News Forum

Shooterman LNF Speaker LNF Bunker Offline 2009 LNF libertarian of the year. Posts: 23,194	Is The Union Perpetual? Apr 11^th, 2009 at 1:28pm State your reasons. I say no, absolutely. It was never intended as such by the framers and ratifiers of the Constitution. In effect, the framers and ratifiers would be holding hostage the people to come after. It is not a Constitutional concept.
Back to top	We have computers and Boeing 747s because the North won the Civil War- Thomas Paine December 2010&&&&&&&& We should not fall into the trap of taking ourselves too seriously. Shooterman 1935- &&&&The United States is entirely [354 U.S. 1, 6] a creature of the Constitution. IP Logged

Lady_Marva Ex Member	Re: Is The Union Perpetual? Reply #1 - Apr 12^th, 2009 at 3:19pm Define "perpetual".
Back to top	IP Logged

Rabbit_Reborn LNF Speaker LNF Bunker Offline Extremist. Posts: 10,668 Midwest	Re: Is The Union Perpetual? Reply #2 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 1:30am I do not believe so. I believe that a people who would fight off the world's super power to gain independence, if anybody, would have recognized the danger of giving absolute authority and perpetuity to a central government.
Back to top	"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain — that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." —Lysander Spooner, The Constitution of No Authority, 1870 IP Logged

Jasmine LNF Speaker LNF Bunker Conservative Caucus Offline God Bless America! Posts: 12,519 Hawaii Gender:	Re: Is The Union Perpetual? Reply #3 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 1:40am I voted "I Don't Know." I'm not sure what "Union" is. If you're referring to the United States and whether states can secede, then I suppose that's possible.
Back to top	The Beautiful People - "Cleansing the world...one ugly person at a time."&&I will not change my signature until:&&-- We launch an attack on Iran AGAIN&&-- Castro, Chavez, ~~Ping Pong Il,~~ Putrid or Ahamadmaszesad drops dead&&~~-- "Justice For All" returns~~&&-- "Bob" returns&&-- "ProudVet returns" IP Logged

bullthistle beau Ex Member	Re: Is The Union Perpetual? Reply #4 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 8:33am I voted 'No' also. Nothing is perpetual, unless maybe you count R2 ignoring or missing the thread on Poughkeepsie.
Back to top	IP Logged

Pepe

LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker

Offline

Posts: 12,427
Pickwick Dam, TN
Gender: male

Re: Is The Union Perpetual?
Reply #5 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 8:59am

The "Union" is not perpetual nor did the Founders intend for the Union to be everlasting.

The Founders clearly wrote the Compact and Constitution with not only a division of responsibilities among the General Government but deliberately and with careful thought left most of the Power with the Sovereign States as a Check on the Authority of the Central Government.

Back to top

&&&&"In this world it is often dangerous to be an enemy of the United States, but to be a friend is fatal" - Henry Kissinger. &&&&

IP Logged

Shooterman

LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker

Offline

2009 LNF libertarian of
the year.

Posts: 23,194

Re: Is The Union Perpetual?
Reply #6 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 9:07am

The reason for my poll and thread was based on past arguments of the Founders intended for the Union to be perpetual because that was what was included in the Articles of Confederation. Yet, the same Founders disavowed the perpetuality of the Union by seceding from the Confederation to reform the present day Union. Perpetual is also not found within the Constitution.

Back to top

We have computers and Boeing 747s because the North won the Civil War- Thomas Paine December 2010&&&&&&&&

We should not fall into the trap of taking ourselves too seriously. Shooterman 1935-

&&&&The United States is entirely [354 U.S. 1, 6] a creature of the Constitution.

IP Logged

Shooterman

LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker

Offline

2009 LNF libertarian of
the year.

Posts: 23,194

Re: Is The Union Perpetual?
Reply #7 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 9:10am

Pepe wrote on Apr 13^th, 2009 at 8:59am:

The "Union" is not perpetual nor did the Founders intend for the Union to be everlasting.

The Founders clearly wrote the Compact and Constitution with not only a division of responsibilities among the General Government but deliberately and with careful thought left most of the Power with the Sovereign States as a Check on the Authority of the Central Government.

Yet some argue that because a state doesn't have all sovereignty, it has none.

Back to top

We have computers and Boeing 747s because the North won the Civil War- Thomas Paine December 2010&&&&&&&&

We should not fall into the trap of taking ourselves too seriously. Shooterman 1935-

&&&&The United States is entirely [354 U.S. 1, 6] a creature of the Constitution.

IP Logged

Possumpoint

LNF Representative2
LNF Bunker

Offline

Proud Member of the Doom
& Gloom Club

Posts: 2,735
Dumfries, VA, USA
Gender: male

Re: Is The Union Perpetual?
Reply #8 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 12:25pm

As mush as I admire the individuality shown by free stater's, the Federal Government is the ultimate power and is corrupted by it. Ever since the Civil War was fought and won by the North their power has been consolidated. The power of the Feds has grown through the legislative process despite the intent of the constitution. They will not relinquish that power without a fight. States that get too far out of line will be taken over by the Feds and get re-educated. It would take a general revolt to overthrow that and I don't see us all standing up.

Sounds like another political system we've heard of doesn't it?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 13^th, 2009 at 12:44pm by Possumpoint »

Learn all you can, it's a one way trip.

IP Logged

Senator_Hatrack

Ex Member

Re: Is The Union Perpetual?
Reply #9 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 4:52pm

Shooterman wrote on Apr 13^th, 2009 at 9:10am:

Yet some argue that because a state doesn't have all sovereignty, it has none.

The states are autonomous they are not sovereign. Only fifteen states have any claim on having been sovereign states the other 35 do not. The oritginal 13 were, before they ratified our Constitution, sovereign states. By ratifying our Constitution they surrendered their sovereignty to our Federal government. The other states that were at one time sovereign states are Texas and Hawaii. As the Republic of Texas it was a sovereign state for until it joined the Union. Hawaii when it was annexed by the US to become a US territory was a kingdom. The other 35 were never sovereign states. All of them were first United States territories with their boundries created by Congress. After a period of being a US territory they all requested permission from Congress to join the Union.

Is the Union perpetual? No, nothing is perpetual. However there is nothing in our Constitution that gives states the right to secede from the Union. Our Founding Fathers believed from their experience of living under the Articles of Confederation that unless there was central government, with limited but broader powers than under the A of C, the nation they had fought a war to create would not long exist. The external and internal threats our new country faced convinced them of the need for a strong central government. Unfortunately like all governments the desire for power has caused ours to grow far beyond what our Constitution says our government can do. Now we are faced with problem of how to reduce the power our Federal government has usurped. How we can do that within the guidelines of our Constitution is the challenge we as a nation must find a solution to.

Back to top

IP Logged