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Hairy_Head

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #10 - Nov 17^th, 2010 at 9:15pm

Book_Worm wrote on Nov 17^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

This is about MORALITY, not law. Is every law moral? Morality is based upon one's faith, not what is law . You seem to have that confused.

Thank you for stating quite plainly MORALITY HAS NO BASIS IN AMERICAN LAW. If you were arguing Moral Rights vs Civil Rights, I might give you an argument.

You can keep looking for people, who agree with your religious faith based morality argument. They are out there. You just have to find them.

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Hairy_Head

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #11 - Nov 18^th, 2010 at 12:06am

I can accept Moral Rights, but not faith based morality. I prefer Civil Rights.

So you just keep looking for a way to use your religious faith to stop abortion.
And, should you be lucky enough to convince the women of this country to vote to eliminate the legal medical procedure called abortion, don't scream about the cost of welfare for the unemployed woman and her children.

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Book_Worm Ex Member	Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for. Reply #12 - Dec 6^th, 2010 at 11:01pm Hairy_Head wrote on Nov 17^th, 2010 at 9:15pm: Thank you for stating quite plainly MORALITY HAS NO BASIS IN AMERICAN LAW. I never said that because obviously our laws are based upon the concept of the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
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Book_Worm

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #13 - Dec 6^th, 2010 at 11:04pm

Hairy_Head wrote on Nov 18^th, 2010 at 12:06am:

I can accept Moral Rights, but not faith based morality. I prefer Civil Rights.

So you just keep looking for a way to use your religious faith to stop abortion.
And, should you be lucky enough to convince the women of this country to vote to eliminate the legal medical procedure called abortion, don't scream about the cost of welfare for the unemployed woman and her children.

Since man has changed laws to suit their situation, then it can be concluded that all present laws are not based upon religious principles. This includes such things as abortion and even sentencing for those who commit murder. But Christians will show in the Bible where it says that abortion is against God's laws.

But if you're not a God fearing person, it doesn't matter to you even if God skywrote it on a blue sky one day, you'd still not believe.

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elmerfudd

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #14 - Jan 17^th, 2011 at 6:04pm

Duncan_Pa wrote on Sep 13^th, 2010 at 2:13am:

....being pro-life?

The previous thread I commented in got me thinking. I can think of a few moral arguments for a person to argue for the immoral act of killing the unborn. I may not agree but I fully understand the arguments.

Off the top of my head: health of mother,

rape

/incest, extreme economic/mental/social conditions. More or less there are instances where someone would place some other moral concern over the life of the unborn.

Then there are the immoral arguments: the statist (control of who gets born, spending control), the parent (not wanting the responsibility), the abortion industry (greed), pseudo-science (it's not really a life anyway...)

I am sure there are more in each category.

Then there is the pro-life side...

While there are many arguments from "God says so" to arguments on the negative side-effects of a culture of death in society, it all boils down to: Killing a human being is wrong. The end.

Can you come up with a rational, immoral argument for being pro-life?

Note: I am not sure the evil-patriarch-wants-subjugate-women-and-spread-his-seed argument sometimes proffered by ultra-feminists passes muster as rational. Though if anyone goes this route I would be very interested in seeing your train of thought.

I would like to know, specifically, if you agree that rape is a moral justification for abortion. I would also like to know, whether you agree with that, if you (or anybody else who reads this) wants the penalty for abortion to be equivalent to that of premeditated murder for all who participate, including the mother who hires the abortionist, or if you would just be satisfied with a return to pre Roe vs. Wade status.

But there is no immoral argument for being pro life that I can think of. I just don't think most pro-lifers are nearly as pro life as they like to believe they are.

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Hairy_Head

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #15 - May 1^st, 2011 at 10:46pm

Book_Worm wrote on Nov 17^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

This is about MORALITY, not law. Is every law moral? Morality is based upon one's faith, not what is law. You seem to have that confused.

You right-wing folks are a great pain in the BUTT. This is a nation of LAWS, not a nation based on MORALS. I am not confused, but morality is not law, and it is subjective to each and every persons particular belief system.

I heartily recommend you read the actual decision.

http://atheism.about.com/library/decisions/privacy/bldec_RoeWade.htm

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The above is my opinion and/or the facts I based the opinion on.

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jeff

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #16 - May 17^th, 2011 at 2:04am

Duncan_Pa wrote on Sep 13^th, 2010 at 2:13am:

....being pro-life?

The previous thread I commented in got me thinking. I can think of a few moral arguments for a person to argue for the immoral act of killing the unborn. I may not agree but I fully understand the arguments.

Off the top of my head: health of mother, rape/incest, extreme economic/mental/social conditions. More or less there are instances where someone would place some other moral concern over the life of the unborn.

Then there are the immoral arguments: the statist (control of who gets born, spending control), the parent (not wanting the responsibility), the abortion industry (greed), pseudo-science (it's not really a life anyway...)

I am sure there are more in each category.

Then there is the pro-life side...

While there are many arguments from "God says so" to arguments on the negative side-effects of a culture of death in society, it all boils down to: Killing a human being is wrong. The end.

Can you come up with a rational, immoral argument for being pro-life?

Note: I am not sure the evil-patriarch-wants-subjugate-women-and-spread-his-seed argument sometimes proffered by ultra-feminists passes muster as rational. Though if anyone goes this route I would be very interested in seeing your train of thought.

control over another person... foisting responsibility onto either a man or woman in order maintain control.

for example, a woman carrying her baby to term in order to keep hold of her guy. or to force him to pay money out.

not sure if that's being pro-life, but it's an individual example of immoral justification.

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jeff

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #17 - May 17^th, 2011 at 2:06am

Hairy_Head wrote on Nov 17^th, 2010 at 9:15pm:

Thank you for stating quite plainly MORALITY HAS NO BASIS IN AMERICAN LAW. If you were arguing Moral Rights vs Civil Rights, I might give you an argument.

You can keep looking for people, who agree with your religious faith based morality argument. They are out there. You just have to find them.

really? you're making that leap from what she said?

so you seem to be arguing that as long as something is legal, it's right. sure you want to tread down that slippery path?

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jeff

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #18 - May 17^th, 2011 at 2:09am

Hairy_Head wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 10:46pm:

You right-wing folks are a great pain in the BUTT. This is a nation of LAWS, not a nation based on MORALS. I am not confused, but morality is not law, and it is subjective to each and every persons particular belief system.

I heartily recommend you read the actual decision.

http://atheism.about.com/library/decisions/privacy/bldec_RoeWade.htm

so you don't believe that abortion is right. you only believe that it's right at this point in history. back a few decades when it was illegal, then it was wrong.

you don't really think we're arguing the legality, do you?

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Duncan_Pa

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Re: Can You Think of an Immoral Justification for.
Reply #19 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:32am

Quote:

control over another person... foisting responsibility onto either a man or woman in order maintain control.

for example, a woman carrying her baby to term in order to keep hold of her guy. or to force him to pay money out.

not sure if that's being pro-life, but it's an individual example of immoral justification.

Yeah, on an individual level that is an example, but I was thinking more of the macro level.

To argue that it is wrong to kill an unborn human child...even when the child is not your own...

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