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DV LNF Representative2 Offline RELIGION IS BLISS Posts: 1,665 Gender:	A place for evidence Dec 17^th, 2011 at 11:23am A lot of posts on this site claim (1) that the tortured-and-murdered character known as Jesus is alive today, and (2) that they have a "personal" relationship with this character. I have set aside this location as a place to list all evidence in support of either of these two claims -- sort of like a ark-of-the-covenant for evidence.
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Mercy For All LNF Moderator The Writer's Croft LNF Bunker Offline Be completely alive until you're completely dead. Posts: 36,910 Gender:	Re: A place for evidecne Reply #1 - Dec 17^th, 2011 at 1:07pm Haven't we done this before? I know many things I cannot prove. I know them to be true based on a combination of intuition, experience, and the authority of someone else. What would constitute "evidence" for you?
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DV

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Re: A place for evidecne
Reply #2 - Dec 18^th, 2011 at 9:25am

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Haven't we done this before? I know many things I cannot prove. I know them to be true based on a combination of intuition, experience, and the authority of someone else.

Yes . . . in a way we have. You and I have discussed the potential nature of such proofs or the potential forms of such evidence, but in those discussions you demonstrated that you have no problem surpassing all bounds of absurdity and obstreperousness in side-stepping a direct collision with reality. Despite our prior discussions, I am offering this as a repository for evidence of the truth of these propositions.

Quote:

What would constitute "evidence" for you?

I’m going to decline to go down this diversionary path with you. I think we both know what evidence is. Further, I don’t want to discuss what the evidence could be or might be. I want to know what it is. So far, you’re (at least suggestively) down for “intuition, experience, and the authority of someone else.”

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fair-minded know it all

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Re: A place for evidecne
Reply #3 - Dec 18^th, 2011 at 10:40am

DV wrote on Dec 18^th, 2011 at 9:25am:

I’m going to decline to go down this diversionary path with you. I think we both know what evidence is. Further, I don’t want to discuss what the evidence could be or might be. I want to know what it is. So far, you’re (at least suggestively) down for “intuition, experience, and the authority of someone else.”

It was 2000 years ago so we can't give you video evidence. There were a bunch of witnesses that suffered horrible deaths for proclaiming what they saw and heard. One of them, Paul was actually the worst enemy of the movement. He even oversaw the stoning of the first Christian Martyr. He then made a complete turn around, lived a very tortuous life and death. Why? because the Resurrected Christ came to him and commissioned him to do so. I don't believe any other ancient figure has so many 1st hand accounts written and recorded.

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Re: A place for evidecne
Reply #4 - Dec 18^th, 2011 at 11:06am

fair-minded know it all wrote on Dec 18^th, 2011 at 10:40am:

It was 2000 years ago so we can't give you video evidence. There were a bunch of witnesses that suffered horrible deaths for proclaiming what they saw and heard. One of them, Paul was actually the worst enemy of the movement. He even oversaw the stoning of the first Christian Martyr. He then made a complete turn around, lived a very tortuous life and death. Why? because the Resurrected Christ came to him and commissioned him to do so. I don't believe any other ancient figure has so many 1st hand accounts written and recorded.

Even if true that doesn't prove anything. People give up their lives for the stupidest of reasons.

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DV

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Re: A place for evidecne
Reply #5 - Dec 18^th, 2011 at 11:16am

fair-minded know it all wrote on Dec 18^th, 2011 at 10:40am:

It was 2000 years ago so we can't give you video evidence. There were a bunch of witnesses that suffered horrible deaths for proclaiming what they saw and heard. One of them, Paul was actually the worst enemy of the movement. He even oversaw the stoning of the first Christian Martyr. He then made a complete turn around, lived a very tortuous life and death. Why? because the Resurrected Christ came to him and commissioned him to do so. I don't believe any other ancient figure has so many 1st hand accounts written and recorded.

Okay . . . that's your evidence . . . now what proposition or truth do you claim this evidence establishes?

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Mercy For All

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Re: A place for evidecne
Reply #6 - Dec 18^th, 2011 at 5:47pm

DV wrote on Dec 18^th, 2011 at 9:25am:

Yes . . . in a way we have. You and I have discussed the potential nature of such proofs or the potential forms of such evidence, but in those discussions you demonstrated that you have no problem surpassing all bounds of absurdity and obstreperousness in side-stepping a direct collision with reality. Despite our prior discussions, I am offering this as a repository for evidence of the truth of these propositions.

You would be correct if by "reality" you actually said "your opinion."

Quote:

I’m going to decline to go down this diversionary path with you. I think we both know what evidence is. Further, I don’t want to discuss what the evidence could be or might be. I want to know what it is. So far, you’re (at least suggestively) down for “intuition, experience, and the authority of someone else.”

Which is what all evidence for any belief is: intuition, experience, and authority.

For example, empirical evidence is either experience or authority. If you actually performed the experiment, it is experience. If someone else did, and you take their word for it, it is authority.

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DV

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Re: A place for evidecne
Reply #7 - Dec 18^th, 2011 at 9:30pm

Mercy For All wrote on Dec 18^th, 2011 at 5:47pm:

You would be correct if by "reality" you actually said "your opinion."

Which is what all evidence for any belief is: intuition, experience, and authority.

For example, empirical evidence is either experience or authority. If you actually performed the experiment, it is experience. If someone else did, and you take their word for it, it is authority.

You are so wonderfully slippery and disingenuous when you have to be. So, what exactly is your evidence that the tortured-and-murdered one lives today?

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Mercy For All

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Re: A place for evidecne
Reply #8 - Dec 18^th, 2011 at 10:17pm

DV wrote on Dec 18^th, 2011 at 9:30pm:

You are so wonderfully slippery and disingenuous when you have to be. So, what exactly is your evidence that the tortured-and-murdered one lives today?

Before I do, point out in what specific ways I am being "slippery and disingenuous"? I've articulated all this before. I haven't "changed my point of view" or misrepresented it or shifted definitions.

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DV

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Re: A place for evidecne
Reply #9 - Dec 19^th, 2011 at 7:53am

Mercy For All wrote on Dec 18^th, 2011 at 10:17pm:

Before I do, point out in what specific ways I am being "slippery and disingenuous"? I've articulated all this before. I haven't "changed my point of view" or misrepresented it or shifted definitions.

Quote:

. . . empirical evidence is either experience or authority. If you actually performed the experiment, it is experience. If someone else did, and you take their word for it, it is authority.

That's not what empirical evidence IS. That might be how evidence itself is OBTAINED. But by making the above observation you are STILL evading the issue . . . PRESENT THE EVIDENCE THAT THIS TORTURED AND MURDERED CHARACTER IS ALIVE TODAY!!

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