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patrick2

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #70 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 5:18pm

forgotten centrist wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 5:02pm:

Term limits are unconstitutional? Amend it! We did it for the president -- and there was at least one serious attempt to do it for congress. With congressional approval ratings this low, it might be time to try again. And are you suggesting the limits on the POTUS are "anti-democratic"?

Obviously - people should be able to choose their public officials. That's....uh......er....whatsa word?......democratic.

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As for gerrymandering -- I would normally agree that the states can handle it, except that it has national implications. Congressional delegations figure into legislative majorities. And gerrymandering IS anti-democratic -- far more so than term limits. Best to follow the model in Iowa and assemble non-partisan census offices to set geographically sensible voting districts.

I agree that it's anti-democratic, but constititionally it's a matter for the states.

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Donations = speech? No. Speech = speech.

"Speech", in 2012, means getting your message on the air waves. Costs money. No money no speech. All clear now sparky?

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Unlimited donations actually suppress free speech by allowing wealthy investors to drown out opponents and critics.

They only can "drown out" to the degree that people are stupid and are impressed by such as repetition instead of logic. That they are is due to our failed government school system. The cure is privatization of government schools, not suppression of free speech, which is sort of like burning down the house to roast the pig. Wink

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Proportional representation is not helpful? Tell that to every democracy that has been set up since the 50s.

Tell it to italy which has had 150 governments since WWII, largely because it has a plethora of parties.

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Most democracies use it in one of their houses. It's the only way to make every voter really count.

Nonsense, every vote "counts" in our system.

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Libertarians, for example, are suppressed here because neither party speaks for them, but in a proportional house, a 10% win would net them 10% of the seats in the house. And libertarians would finally have a role to play in government!

There's nothing in our system that prevents the libertarian party from winning a congressional seat here or there. In our system, the two parties represent a wide spectrum of views internally, analogous to the parliamentary system's mutiple parties. I would remind you that ron paul IS a member of congress. Roll Eyes

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Easy voter registration = free (to the voter) and simple (to authenticate and deal with, not a day standing in line at the DMV). Allow early voting everywhere. Allow WEEKEND voting. Maximize registration and make voting EASY (and authenticated). If you're trying to root out vote fraud, you'd do far better by eliminating electronic voting machines!

Nobody charges for registration! Registering has never been hard for me - where do people stand in line for a day? You're making stuff up.

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YouSickenMe

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #71 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 5:23pm

Self-radicalizing Harry wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 5:07pm:

No, by stating that I believe evolution is a fact; I'm stating that I believe evolution is a fact.

Now, if you're tired of calling me a liar by telling a lie... maybe we can get back on subject.

And then you say it's not. One of them is a lie.

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quiller

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #72 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 5:33pm

Centrist, do you agree that there is now not enough time for opening a true Constitutional Convention, in 2012? That's the "window year" which was specified in increments of so many years after the original document was signed, is it not?

And either way it opens our Constitution to the hard cold fact that Bubba Clinton's Congress strongly approved the Defense of Marriage Act and if the ConCon opens, DOMA will be right there as a Con-con article. This will set the deviate-rights crowd back in its tracks, if not kill this phony marriage scheme altogether.

I'd like to see a 65-seat Senate majority to approve all spending. At least 65% of the House, as well. (I also expect to see that swine flew, on gilded wings.)

ConCon is deadly stuff for incumbents in this sour a political atmospherte. Term limits are NOT NOW Constitutional, but ConCon can fix that. Don't expect a lot of talk about it, until it's way too late to utilize the prescribed window.

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forgotten centrist

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #73 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 6:03pm

patrick2 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 5:18pm:

Obviously - people should be able to choose their public officials. That's....uh......er....whatsa word?......democratic.

Well, it was your republican party that pushed for POTUS term limits, after FDR's 4th win. The problem with "no term limits" is that office holders entrench and use the power of their office for endless free campaigning. Challengers have no chance, and we end up with a 95%+ incumbency rate. That doesn't sound like a very democratic outcome to me.

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"Speech", in 2012, means getting your message on the air waves. Costs money. No money no speech. All clear now sparky?

If you can put up a web site, facebook page, twitter account, etc., you can get your message out. If you can hold press conferences, attend debates, hold town meetings, and write op-eds, you can get your message out. The money factor comes in when buying commercials on radio and tv. THAT is what's most expensive, least focused on actual issues/policies, and which targets the most ignorant, inattentive segments of society. If you think we really need to put commercials up for political candidates, move them through a publicly-funded or station-mandated 6-week campaign window where all validated candidates can be heard.

This says NOTHING about the quid pro quo arrangements that ALWAYS come into play when investors fund candidates.

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Tell it to italy which has had 150 governments since WWII, largely because it has a plethora of parties.

What happens in these democracies is not a new "government", but a new "governing coalition". And it more accurately reflects society than our winner-take-all system. With our system, libertarians, greens, etc are shut out aside from 1-2 quirky districts because nobody wants to "throw away" their vote on a losing candidate.

The effect is that the 2-party duopoly draws battle lines over a handful of wedge issues (gay marriage, gun rights, abortion, tax cuts) and there is almost no debate on everything else. Ron Paul is an exception, and the media have done their best to silence and marginalize him, same as they did to Ralph Nader.

Libertarians are faced with either voting for republican representatives that don't fully represent them, or voting for a libertarian who is guaranteed to lose. I myself had to hold my nose and vote for my local democrat rep, even though he vigorously supported TARP. Under a proportional system, they'd get their 10% in the lower house, and have a voice either in the ruling coalition or the loyal opposition. And everyone who voted for them would have THEIR voice heard.

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"...whether Leviathan can long endure so wide a chase, and so remorseless a havoc; whether he must not at last be exterminated from the waters, and the last whale, like the last man, smoke his last pipe, and then himself evaporate in the final puff."

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forgotten centrist

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #74 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 6:06pm

quiller wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 5:33pm:

Centrist, do you agree that there is now not enough time for opening a true Constitutional Convention, in 2012?

I think we should have one every 10 years! It would be a keep the nation focused on what we really want, set up a national referendum on real policy, and be a great pressure release valve.

It's been too long and the amendment process is so choked up that nothing is ever going to make it through the sausage grinder anymore.

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"...whether Leviathan can long endure so wide a chase, and so remorseless a havoc; whether he must not at last be exterminated from the waters, and the last whale, like the last man, smoke his last pipe, and then himself evaporate in the final puff."

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patrick2

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #75 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 6:19pm

forgotten centrist wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 6:03pm:

Well, it was your republican party that pushed for POTUS term limits, after FDR's 4th win.

Uh, puhleeeeeese - don't hold ME accountable for the actions of late 1940s RINOs - I'm a conservative.

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The problem with "no term limits" is that office holders entrench and use the power of their office for endless free campaigning. Challengers have no chance, and we end up with a 95%+ incumbency rate. That doesn't sound like a very democratic outcome to me.

It only works for them insofar as people are idiots. The cure is repairing people's idiocy (there's that government school system again) - not anti-democratic policies.

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If you can put up a web site, facebook page, twitter account, etc., you can get your message out. If you can hold press conferences, attend debates, hold town meetings, and write op-eds, you can get your message out. The money factor comes in when buying commercials on radio and tv. THAT is what's most expensive,

If twitter were sufficient, nobody would pay for TV ads. Roll Eyes

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What happens in these democracies is not a new "government", but a new "governing coalition". And it more accurately reflects society than our winner-take-all system. With our system, libertarians, greens, etc are shut out aside from 1-2 quirky districts because nobody wants to "throw away" their vote on a losing candidate.

No, the same horse-trading goes on >>WITHIN<< the two parties, which each represent the same spectrum of views as multiple parties would. There's not much real difference in outcomes.

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The effect is that the 2-party duopoly draws battle lines over a handful of wedge issues (gay marriage, gun rights, abortion, tax cuts) and there is almost no debate on everything else.

"Wedge issue" is a deprecatory term used by libs to refer to issues that are not important to them but ARE to other people. What you're saying is - let's have a system where what I think is important is focussed on.

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Libertarians are faced with either voting for republican representatives that don't fully represent them, or voting for a libertarian who is guaranteed to lose.

NOBODY ever could perfectly represent ANYONE under any system.

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Self-radicalizing Harry LNF Speaker LNF Bunker Offline I used to be Bert, but something went terribly wro Posts: 19,490 Gender:	Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade Reply #76 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 6:38pm Quote: And then you say it's not. One of them is a lie. Why are you so scared of me?
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TowardLiberty

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #77 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 8:39pm

forgotten centrist wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 10:24am:

You equate supply-side with keynesian? How?

Both have faith in some magic multiplier and neither understand what drives real growth.

One views fiscal stimulus as a tool to drive growth.

The other has the same view but replaces fiscal stimulus with tax cuts. Mind you tax cuts without spending cuts is really just fiscal stimulus in another package.

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"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard

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patrick2

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #78 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 8:52pm

TowardLiberty wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 8:39pm:

Both have faith in some magic multiplier and neither understand what drives real growth.

One views fiscal stimulus as a tool to drive growth.

The other has the same view but replaces fiscal stimulus with tax cuts. Mind you tax cuts without spending cuts is really just fiscal stimulus in another package.

As if our side never supported spending cuts.

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TowardLiberty

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Re: Obamanomics: lowest housing prices in a decade
Reply #79 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 8:54pm

patrick2 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 8:52pm:

As if our side never supported spending cuts.

No doubt some did. But it looks like the majority of both parties have different ideas...

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"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard

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