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patrick2

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Question 6 for Christians
May 26^th, 2012 at 1:00am

Christians say Christ died for our sins. Why would God have Christ die for out sins? Isn't that making Christ a scapegoat? Shouldn't every individual pay for their own sins? If God wanted to wipe the slate clean, He could say I'm doing that to commemorate Christ's visit to earth. Why was it necessary for someone to die? And then people started sinning again right away, and the total sins started spinning up faster than the national debt clock under obama. Sorry, but this just doesn't hold together.

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Mercy For All

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #1 - May 26^th, 2012 at 9:16am

Good questions.

patrick2 wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 1:00am:

Christians say Christ died for our sins. Why would God have Christ die for out sins? Isn't that making Christ a scapegoat?

Yes.

Quote:

Shouldn't every individual pay for their own sins?

Yes.

Quote:

If God wanted to wipe the slate clean, He could say I'm doing that to commemorate Christ's visit to earth. Why was it necessary for someone to die?

Because he'd rather not people die. If the "natural result of sin" is death (and I'm arguing that it is), then he'd rather do something about it. Why would the natural result of sin be death? Because sin is turning from God and only in God is there life, ultimately.

Quote:

And then people started sinning again right away, and the total sins started spinning up faster than the national debt clock under obama. Sorry, but this just doesn't hold together.

Do this thought experiment:

Pretend you're God and you are creating people to be in a love relationship with you. How would you go about doing that so that they are not automatons? How would you deal with people choosing death instead of you?

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patrick2

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #2 - May 26^th, 2012 at 2:18pm

You're not facing the question head on. Why did Jesus or anyone have to die to forgive sins? God could, as I said, have just wiped the slate clean, nobody dies.

Secondly, I take it that was was just up to that point, then the sins start all over again. So what was the point? It's as if someone shovels the sidewalk during a snowstorm - a day later it's as thick as it was.

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Mercy For All LNF Moderator The Writer's Croft LNF Bunker Offline Be completely alive until you're completely dead. Posts: 36,910 Gender:	Re: Question 6 for Christians Reply #3 - May 26^th, 2012 at 3:51pm patrick2 wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 2:18pm: You're not facing the question head on. Why did Jesus or anyone have to die to forgive sins? God could, as I said, have just wiped the slate clean, nobody dies. Engage my last question and you'll find some answers...
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jeff

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #4 - May 26^th, 2012 at 6:38pm

patrick2 wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

You're not facing the question head on. Why did Jesus or anyone have to die to forgive sins? God could, as I said, have just wiped the slate clean, nobody dies.

Secondly, I take it that was was just up to that point, then the sins start all over again. So what was the point? It's as if someone shovels the sidewalk during a snowstorm - a day later it's as thick as it was.

there are rules to living. whether people want to admit it or not, they are there. there are natural consequences to the way you live. for that to be reflected on the soul seems kind of natural.
it's true for the physical body, for the emotional self, and for the spiritual person as well.

if you jump off a cliff into water, you get wet. you can complain all day and say, "why do we have to get wet? why can't we just stay dry?".
there is a physical consequence.
if there wasn't water, jumping off the cliff would result in death. then everyone else can complain, "why did he die? why didn't he get a second chance?".

likewise with emotional issues. there are consequences, both for yourself and other people, as a result of your interactions with people.

i'm interested in the fact that people have two huge complaints:
why are the stakes so high that when you die you get punished for your sin?
and
why did Jesus have to die?

these are simply natural consequences or reactions to actions.
if you want to simply start over every single time, and carry no consequences with you, you either live a very short life and learn nothing, or, as Mercy said, you're an automaton.

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fair-minded know it all

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #5 - May 26^th, 2012 at 6:50pm

patrick2 wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 1:00am:

Christians say Christ died for our sins. Why would God have Christ die for out sins? Isn't that making Christ a scapegoat? Shouldn't every individual pay for their own sins? If God wanted to wipe the slate clean, He could say I'm doing that to commemorate Christ's visit to earth.

People look a gift horse in the mouth. We sinned/rebelled. God offers a solution, His own Son as ransom. Through His son He gives us everlasting life/joy/peace relationship with Him. God says this is the only way out, this is my Son, "listen to Him."
But most still complain.

patrick2 wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 1:00am:

Why was it necessary for someone to die? And then people started sinning again right away, and the total sins started spinning up faster than the national debt clock under obama. Sorry, but this just doesn't hold together

God created us perfect, without sin. We all (in Adam) rebelled. God is just and demands justice. The only clean slate comes with payment, our death or His Son's in our place.
And yes, even if we accept and believe and follow Christ we still commit sins. That's what being under grace means, we are not only forgiven yesterday, but today, and tomorrow.

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patrick2

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #6 - May 26^th, 2012 at 7:16pm

Quote:

there are rules to living. whether people want to admit it or not, they are there. there are natural consequences to the way you live. for that to be reflected on the soul seems kind of natural.
it's true for the physical body, for the emotional self, and for the spiritual person as well.

if you jump off a cliff into water, you get wet. you can complain all day and say, "why do we have to get wet? why can't we just stay dry?".
there is a physical consequence.
if there wasn't water, jumping off the cliff would result in death. then everyone else can complain, "why did he die? why didn't he get a second chance?".

likewise with emotional issues. there are consequences, both for yourself and other people, as a result of your interactions with people.

i'm interested in the fact that people have two huge complaints:
why are the stakes so high that when you die you get punished for your sin?
and
why did Jesus have to die?

these are simply natural consequences or reactions to actions.
if you want to simply start over every single time, and carry no consequences with you, you either live a very short life and learn nothing, or, as Mercy said, you're an automaton.

This is simply false. God is the all-powerful being in the universe. He is not constrained by any supposed "rules" - He created the rules.

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patrick2

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #7 - May 26^th, 2012 at 7:17pm

fair-minded know it all wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 6:50pm:

People look a gift horse in the mouth. We sinned/rebelled. God offers a solution, His own Son as ransom. Through His son He gives us everlasting life/joy/peace relationship with Him. God says this is the only way out, this is my Son, "listen to Him."
But most still complain.

God created us perfect, without sin. We all (in Adam) rebelled. God is just and demands justice. The only clean slate comes with payment, our death or His Son's in our place.
And yes, even if we accept and believe and follow Christ we still commit sins. That's what being under grace means, we are not only forgiven yesterday, but today, and tomorrow.

Yoiu too are evading the question, offering instead a bunch of ambiguous religious cant.

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Mercy For All

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #8 - May 26^th, 2012 at 8:21pm

patrick2 wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 7:17pm:

Yoiu too are evading the question, offering instead a bunch of ambiguous religious cant.

"Evading the question"? You're evading my question. This seems to be your modus operandi. You ask questions, avoid anything that actually makes you think, then accuse everyone else of evading the question.

HOW does God encourage relationship with him and allow for free will (given that a love relationship necessitates free will)?

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jeff

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #9 - May 26^th, 2012 at 9:08pm

patrick2 wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

This is simply false. God is the all-powerful being in the universe. He is not constrained by any supposed "rules" - He created the rules.

we are constrained by rules of the system.
that is natural law. and a part of the natural law is the dynamic of relationship.
otherwise, again, we become or begin as automatons.

relationship is meaningless without feelings. feelings have risks.
relationship is also based on choice. otherwise it isn't relationship. it's a program.

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