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Mercy For All

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #10 - May 26^th, 2012 at 9:50pm

Quote:

we are constrained by rules of the system.
that is natural law. and a part of the natural law is the dynamic of relationship.
otherwise, again, we become or begin as automatons.

relationship is meaningless without feelings. feelings have risks.
relationship is also based on choice. otherwise it isn't relationship. it's a program.

And that's just it. The Christian paradigm is that we are created for relationship with God. patrick2 would be going somewhere if God created us for "something-other-than-relationship"...

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patrick2

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #11 - May 27^th, 2012 at 3:35am

Quote:

we are constrained by rules of the system.
that is natural law. and a part of the natural law is the dynamic of relationship.
otherwise, again, we become or begin as automatons.

relationship is meaningless without feelings. feelings have risks.
relationship is also based on choice. otherwise it isn't relationship. it's a program.

See what I mean when I ask such straight questions as why did someone have to die so that sins would be forgiven? The answers I get are vague incoherent mumbo-jumbo like the above.

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fair-minded know it all

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #12 - May 27^th, 2012 at 10:25am

patrick2 wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 7:17pm:

Yoiu too are evading the question, offering instead a bunch of ambiguous religious cant.

You ask why someone had to die?
Someone had to die because the wages of sin is death.
Is God omnipotent and all powerful? Yes He is.
Can God do anything He wants? His rules are based upon who He is. His "wants" or His will is based on who He is. It's based on His character. He is Holy and Just, created us holy and just, and demands justice for all unholy and unjust behavior.
There are things God can not do. He tells us in scripture that He can not lie, He can not break a promise, He can not approve evil, etc.
Your question is not complicated, nor is the scripture based answer.
If you consider that mumbo jumbo then that my friend is your problem.

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patrick2

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #13 - May 27^th, 2012 at 2:43pm

fair-minded know it all wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 10:25am:

You ask why someone had to die?
Someone had to die because the wages of sin is death.
Is God omnipotent and all powerful? Yes He is.
Can God do anything He wants? His rules are based upon who He is. His "wants" or His will is based on who He is. It's based on His character. He is Holy and Just, created us holy and just, and demands justice for all unholy and unjust behavior.

There you go again. Most people would regard "justice" as something like distributing to individuals their merited rewards or punishments. Yet Jesus is executed for something SOMEBODY ELSE did - that's not justice.

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Mercy For All LNF Moderator The Writer's Croft LNF Bunker Offline Be completely alive until you're completely dead. Posts: 36,910 Gender:	Re: Question 6 for Christians Reply #14 - May 27^th, 2012 at 2:52pm patrick2 wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 2:43pm: There you go again. Most people would regard "justice" as something like distributing to individuals their merited rewards or punishments. Yet Jesus is executed for something SOMEBODY ELSE did - that's not justice. Exactly. Look at the verse quoted in my sig line.
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fair-minded know it all

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #15 - May 27^th, 2012 at 4:06pm

patrick2 wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 2:43pm:

There you go again. Most people would regard "justice" as something like distributing to individuals their merited rewards or punishments. Yet Jesus is executed for something SOMEBODY ELSE did - that's not justice.

Okay, I see what you mean. Hey, if you want to pay for your own sins you're free to do so. Roll Eyes

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #16 - May 27^th, 2012 at 10:11pm

fair-minded know it all wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 4:06pm:

Okay, I see what you mean. Hey, if you want to pay for your own sins you're free to do so. Roll Eyes

According to your theology, I WILL. I'm just trying to understand your religion. When I've tried to understand religions, I encounter what appear to be internal contradictions and inconsistencies, and then when I ask about them, I always get back jargon peculiar to that religion that doesn't explain what I'm trying to find out.

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Mercy For All

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #17 - May 27^th, 2012 at 10:40pm

patrick2 wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 10:11pm:

According to your theology, I WILL. I'm just trying to understand your religion. When I've tried to understand religions, I encounter what appear to be internal contradictions and inconsistencies, and then when I ask about them, I always get back jargon peculiar to that religion that doesn't explain what I'm trying to find out.

You have yet to engage my questions. Why? Not really interested?

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #18 - May 28^th, 2012 at 12:31am

patrick2 wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 3:35am:

See what I mean when I ask such straight questions as why did someone have to die so that sins would be forgiven? The answers I get are vague incoherent mumbo-jumbo like the above.

because when someone betrays you, you get hurt. that will never go away. even if the person forgives you, the hurt never disappears.

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Re: Question 6 for Christians
Reply #19 - May 28^th, 2012 at 4:29pm

Mercy For All wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 9:16am:

Because he'd rather not people die.

Then keep them from dying. Does he lack power?

Quote:

If the "natural result of sin" is death (and I'm arguing that it is), then he'd rather do something about it. Why would the natural result of sin be death? Because sin is turning from God and only in God is there life, ultimately.

That doesn't address why a sacrifice is necessary.

Quote:

Do this thought experiment:

Pretend you're God and you are creating people to be in a love relationship with you. How would you go about doing that so that they are not automatons? How would you deal with people choosing death instead of you?

No one chooses death, in the sense of non-stop everlasting torture.

As for me, I would lay out my reasons and let people make their choices. If they don't choose me, well, so what? I'm The One True Only Eternal Reality. Am I going to be offended if a few hairless apes don't grovel and scrape enough? Am I, the Ancient of Days, pavillioned in splender, girded with praise, surrounded by cherubim and seraphim crying, "Holy! Holy! Holy!", going to be offended enough to torture someone forever?

And what exactly does this have to do with the need for a sacrifice? Re-read the Prophets, God apparently thinks sacrifices are not terribly important.

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"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex

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