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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Archeological Finds. (Read 14,807 times)
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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #110 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 6:45am
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[quote author=71627373170 link=1382204595/109#109 date=1502676422]

First highlight:
I have heard that many times before, but I don't buy it.

Not asking you to buy anything, but then again, why is it difficult to take God at his word?  Neither of us were there, God spoke and life came into being.  Pretty simple since he is the Creator.

Second highlight:
I have never tried to "define the limits of God" and have always recognized He could easily create a universe that LOOKS, based on objective observation, 14 billion (or whatever) years old but is, in reality, only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.  But why?  It is not part and parcel of being saved.  If it were, then it would have a purpose, and maybe it is and I just don't know it.  But I don't think so.

Or, why not?  Again, who are we to doubt or question God?  If you think that this is impossible then again, how about the resurrection?  Where do you start defining and explaining or rationalizing God's miraculous works?

Third highlight:
If Ken Ham is not guilty of that, then no one is.

He has a calling and I see no problem with a museum that reflects on God's creation.  His ultimate goal is winning souls.  Having said this I do not desire to get into a debate about whether or not God actually created the heavens and earth in 6 days.  I will take his word. one day we will have all the answers since I was not personally there nor do I grasp God in his entirety.  Remember the verse about seeing him through a dim glass?

1 Cor 13:12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.


« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2017 at 6:55am by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #111 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 6:53am
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The why part is an interesting point.  Many times God asked us to simply believe.  It is all throughout Israel's existence.  Over and over man fails to simply believe God's word and embarked to do it on his own and was then judged on their lack of faith.  Even after their miraculous deliverance from the bondage of Egypt and entering into the promised land.

  They witnessed God's miracles when he delivered them.  Yet time and time again they would forget and then trust in their own attempts which ended up in God's wrath on the nation.  King Ahaz was given the opportunity to witness ANY miracle in heaven or on earth if he would trust God would deliver him from his enemies and Ahaz refused.  Think about that for a moment. ANY miracle.  God gave him a blank check and he refused to cash it in and he was judged for his lack of faith.

  He had an alliance with Egypt that God knew about because he did not trust that God was true to his word.  It is simple, we doubt and yet God simply ask us to trust him.  Abraham did and God richly blessed him for his faith.  I see no reason to doubt this is within God's ability to do.  The Bible seems rather clear about the subject.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #112 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 1:56pm
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Seawolf wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 6:45am:
[quote author=71627373170 link=1382204595/109#109 date=1502676422]

First highlight:
I have heard that many times before, but I don't buy it.

Not asking you to buy anything, but then again, why is it difficult to take God at his word?  Neither of us were there, God spoke and life came into being.  Pretty simple since he is the Creator.

Second highlight:
I have never tried to "define the limits of God" and have always recognized He could easily create a universe that LOOKS, based on objective observation, 14 billion (or whatever) years old but is, in reality, only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.  But why?  It is not part and parcel of being saved.  If it were, then it would have a purpose, and maybe it is and I just don't know it.  But I don't think so.

Or, why not?  Again, who are we to doubt or question God?  If you think that this is impossible then again, how about the resurrection?  Where do you start defining and explaining or rationalizing God's miraculous works?

Third highlight:
If Ken Ham is not guilty of that, then no one is.

He has a calling and I see no problem with a museum that reflects on God's creation.  His ultimate goal is winning souls.  Having said this I do not desire to get into a debate about whether or not God actually created the heavens and earth in 6 days.  I will take his word. one day we will have all the answers since I was not personally there nor do I grasp God in his entirety.  Remember the verse about seeing him through a dim glass?

1 Cor 13:12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.



I do take God at His word.  So do all of Bible believing Christians.  What they differ on is what is meant by that Word. 

As I mentioned earlier, at one time allegedly Bible believing Christians burned people at the stake for suggesting the earth was not the center of the universe.  The Bible "clearly" said it was.  It was created first, right?  According to the Genesis account, the sun was created after it, right?  But that was clearly proven false by objective observation.  Did God lie?  No.  People misunderstood the message of Genesis. 

It's fine with me if you and many others want to believe the earth is 6,000 or 10,000 years old, but insisting on that belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary does not bring people into the fold.  It repels them. 

I think I also mentioned one of my discussions with a "young earther."  He said he favored the 10,000 year age because, he said "as we know, the 6,000 year age calculation is based on an incomplete geneaology."  So I asked, "So how do you know the 10,000 year geneaology is not also incomplete?"  He just stared at me until it got awkward and I went away.

God gets credit (or blame) for a lot of stuff because people say "God's word says.."  or "God told me."  There are religious sects that handle snakes and drink poison because God's word says those "signs" shall accompany those who believe.  And it does.  (Some early manuscripts omit those verses.)

What I am saying is when there is a conflict between what one thinks God word says and what one can plainly see and observe based on objective science, the most likely resolution is that one has misunderstood what God's word says.  Back to the earlier example: the earth is NOT the center of the universe.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #113 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 4:11pm
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EF wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 1:56pm:
I do take God at His word.  So do all of Bible believing Christians.  What they differ on is what is meant by that Word. 

As I mentioned earlier, at one time allegedly Bible believing Christians burned people at the stake for suggesting the earth was not the center of the universe.  The Bible "clearly" said it was.  It was created first, right?  According to the Genesis account, the sun was created after it, right?  But that was clearly proven false by objective observation.  Did God lie?  No.  People misunderstood the message of Genesis. 

It's fine with me if you and many others want to believe the earth is 6,000 or 10,000 years old, but insisting on that belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary does not bring people into the fold.  It repels them. 

I think I also mentioned one of my discussions with a "young earther."  He said he favored the 10,000 year age because, he said "as we know, the 6,000 year age calculation is based on an incomplete geneaology."  So I asked, "So how do you know the 10,000 year geneaology is not also incomplete?"  He just stared at me until it got awkward and I went away.

God gets credit (or blame) for a lot of stuff because people say "God's word says.."  or "God told me."  There are religious sects that handle snakes and drink poison because God's word says those "signs" shall accompany those who believe.  And it does.  (Some early manuscripts omit those verses.)

What I am saying is when there is a conflict between what one thinks God word says and what one can plainly see and observe based on objective science, the most likely resolution is that one has misunderstood what God's word says.  Back to the earlier example: the earth is NOT the center of the universe.


By whom and how?
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #114 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 4:15pm
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Again, let's be honest, neither you nor I was there at the beginning.  The order as written can not be validated by you or I because no one was present when God created.  I am not getting how we can prove or disprove the order of Creation by so called objective observation.  God ordains all things so how can we objectively prove it false?  there are scripture where he made the sun travel backwards, even stop the sun from setting during a battle for a period of time.  So not sure our so called objective observations are sound when it comes to God.

I also spent some time studying if a day was truly a day and based on my studies of the Hebrew word, there was no reason to think otherwise.  We can go back and forth but then again I point you to the scripture I quoted that we see dimly through a mirror and all will be revealed in the end.  At that time you and I will know without a doubt.
« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2017 at 4:21pm by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #115 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 6:39pm
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Seawolf wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 4:15pm:
Again, let's be honest, neither you nor I was there at the beginning.  The order as written can not be validated by you or I because no one was present when God created.  I am not getting how we can prove or disprove the order of Creation by so called objective observation.  God ordains all things so how can we objectively prove it false?  there are scripture where he made the sun travel backwards, even stop the sun from setting during a battle for a period of time.  So not sure our so called objective observations are sound when it comes to God.

I also spent some time studying if a day was truly a day and based on my studies of the Hebrew word, there was no reason to think otherwise.  We can go back and forth but then again I point you to the scripture I quoted that we see dimly through a mirror and all will be revealed in the end.  At that time you and I will know without a doubt.


Knock yerself out.  But if you and Ken Ham think this stance helps "win a lost world to Jesus" you're wrong.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #116 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 6:40pm
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Seawolf wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 4:11pm:
By whom and how?


Pretty much the same type folks who eventually debunked the "fact" that the earth is the center of the universe and with objective, scientific methods.  Or do you and Ken Ham still cling to that one, too.
« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2017 at 6:46pm by EF »  

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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #117 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 7:19pm
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EF wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 6:40pm:
Pretty much the same type folks who eventually debunked the "fact" that the earth is the center of the universe and with objective, scientific methods.  Or do you and Ken Ham still cling to that one, too.

Conversation over this does nothing to promote our faith other then create discord.  I am not going to attack Ken Ham, he is a Christian and if you do not agree, then simply disagree.  You know my view, I know yours and in the end we get our answers, I'm patient, are you?  I am not going to go down the road of bashing fellow believers, something we are warned about doing.
« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2017 at 7:45pm by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #118 - Aug 14th, 2017 at 9:03pm
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Seawolf wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 7:19pm:
Conversation over this does nothing to promote our faith other then create discord.  I am not going to attack Ken Ham, he is a Christian and if you do not agree, then simply disagree.  You know my view, I know yours and in the end we get our answers, I'm patient, are you?  I am not going to go down the road of bashing fellow believers, something we are warned about doing.


I am not attacking Ken Ham, I am questioning his motives.  He says (or at least his representative who did an Answers in Genesis conference I attended says he says) the motive is to "make the tent big enough for young earthers to feel comfortable in their belief while not excluding old earthers."  But what he is doing is just that - alienating old earthers.

I do simply disagree with him, and I simply disagree that the Bible teaches "God created the earth 10,000 years ago."  Just as I disagree that it ever said "God created the earth 10,000 years ago and it is the center of the universe."  Doesn't mean God lied; it means man has misunderstood the message.  And that's not uncommon.  Historical examples beyond the earth being the center of the universe abound.  The crusades, for example.  Allegedly God "told" someone to go reclaim the holy land. 

I think I'll let it go at this point.  Have a good 'un.
  

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Re: Archeological Finds.
Reply #119 - Aug 15th, 2017 at 6:35am
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EF wrote on Aug 14th, 2017 at 9:03pm:
I am not attacking Ken Ham, I am questioning his motives.  He says (or at least his representative who did an Answers in Genesis conference I attended says he says) the motive is to "make the tent big enough for young earthers to feel comfortable in their belief while not excluding old earthers."  But what he is doing is just that - alienating old earthers.

I do simply disagree with him, and I simply disagree that the Bible teaches "God created the earth 10,000 years ago."  Just as I disagree that it ever said "God created the earth 10,000 years ago and it is the center of the universe."  Doesn't mean God lied; it means man has misunderstood the message.  And that's not uncommon.  Historical examples beyond the earth being the center of the universe abound.  The crusades, for example.  Allegedly God "told" someone to go reclaim the holy land. 

I think I'll let it go at this point.  Have a good 'un.

No problem, there are many questions I have that I understand will not be answered until the end.  One of them that I have problems grasping is the Godhead.  I believe it, I simply do not understand it.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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