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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism" (Read 2,802 times)
Queshank
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #10 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 12:37pm
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maat wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 12:16pm:
Same old liberal argument, different format. As with cooperation for police, fire, roads etc...individualist accept a certain amount of cooperation.

This does not justify your idiology of forced redistribution.


What does seem to justify it is that your post here seems to indicate you and liberals merely disagree on what constitutes "individualism".  If you can easily see the individualist accepting a certain amount of cooperation vis a vis "police, fire, roads" then you're being quite arbitrary when you refuse to add healthcare to that list ... as it falls into the same category of services.  And by extension the same goes for public utilities as electricity is as essential to society functioning as are the roads.  And heck, why stop there...?

Queshank

  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #11 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 12:49pm
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Quote:
What does seem to justify it is that your post here seems to indicate you and liberals merely disagree on what constitutes "individualism".  If you can easily see the individualist accepting a certain amount of cooperation vis a vis "police, fire, roads" then you're being quite arbitrary when you refuse to add healthcare to that list ... as it falls into the same category of services.  And by extension the same goes for public utilities as electricity is as essential to society functioning as are the roads.  And heck, why stop there...?

Queshank


I would agree.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Just An Independent Bishop
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #12 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 1:08pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
Yep, that shows how private property is the foundation of civilization.



And yet every year more private property is lost to the powers that be, and we have the resultant curse of more homeless people, more renters, and more private property being owned by the few, not the many.

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

The "Myth of Rugged Individualism" has served the same purpose as your proposal for "open borders" which would serve to further divide the country, and place an unbearable burden on the working class.
  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #13 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 1:11pm
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And yet every year more private property is lost to the powers that be, and we have the resultant curse of more homeless people, more renters, and more private property being owned by the few, not the many.



Yeah, that is the problem with the politicalization of society. And that is the problem with putting the rule of law up for a vote.

I have long maintained that the state is the great enemy of civilization.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Thor3
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #14 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 6:22pm
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maat wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 12:19pm:



Frei Republik?

  
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Thor3
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #15 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 6:23pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 1:11pm:
Yeah, that is the problem with the politicalization of society. And that is the problem with putting the rule of law up for a vote.

I have long maintained that the state is the great enemy of civilization.


Nah, it says that maat can never be taken seriously
  
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maat
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #16 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 6:47pm
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What does seem to justify it is that your post here seems to indicate you and liberals merely disagree on what constitutes "individualism".  If you can easily see the individualist accepting a certain amount of cooperation vis a vis "police, fire, roads" then you're being quite arbitrary when you refuse to add healthcare to that list ... as it falls into the same category of services.  And by extension the same goes for public utilities as electricity is as essential to society functioning as are the roads.  And heck, why stop there...?

Queshank



Healthcare is a luxury of modern society. It is not a right or public utility. Healthcare, like a Tv, can and should be treated the same as any other comodity with the exception of emergency treatment for life threatening issues. But, you better be prepared to make arrangements for payment/settlement or go to jail. No bankruptcy, no homeowner exemptions. Utilities are no different than toll roads. I pay as I use.

Food, clothing, shelter, college, incomes and healthcare are individual based wants/needs that do not require government participation beyond reasonable regulation for fair market access. These are not rights. You wanting them to be does not make them so.


  

Social Security, Medicare, Disability, Unemployment Benefits and Welfare are baby bottles for Socialist.
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maat
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #17 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 6:56pm
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Quote:
And yet every year more private property is lost to the powers that be, and we have the resultant curse of more homeless people, more renters, and more private property being owned by the few, not the many.

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

The "Myth of Rugged Individualism" has served the same purpose as your proposal for "open borders" which would serve to further divide the country, and place an unbearable burden on the working class.


The government promotes poor buying and financial habits which lead to people struggling to own property. The concept of longterm payments and low to no downs combined with the government forcibly confiscating 15.3% of ones income to fund its Bernie Madoff retirement/healthcare plans, have essentially turned most Americans into serfs.
  

Social Security, Medicare, Disability, Unemployment Benefits and Welfare are baby bottles for Socialist.
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Queshank
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #18 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 7:11pm
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maat wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 6:47pm:
Healthcare is a luxury of modern society. It is not a right or public utility.


Police and fire departments are also a luxury of modern society.  And while they've come and gone they were all at one time a "luxury of modern society."  Where do you get the idea they're a right or public utility? 

Quote:
Healthcare, like a Tv, can and should be treated the same as any other comodity with the exception of emergency treatment for life threatening issues. But, you better be prepared to make arrangements for payment/settlement or go to jail. No bankruptcy, no homeowner exemptions. Utilities are no different than toll roads. I pay as I use.


Provide for me please the distinction between a police officer being shot and needing healthcare and ... police depts to begin with?  If one is going to provide a police department and call that an acceptable amount of cooperation for an individual, how is providing treatment for him when he gets shot not an acceptable amount of cooperation?  For that matter the distinction between fire departments and ambulance services seems pretty contrived to me. 

As I suggested in my first post ... you are simply drawing an arbitrary zig zagging line and deciding for yourself that everything on one side of the line is acceptable cooperation and everything on the other side is not acceptable cooperation.  I'm merely asking you to clarify because the arguments you would use to say X is acceptable cooperation sound eerily like the arguments those leftists you're criticizing would use to say Y is acceptable cooperation.

Quote:
Food, clothing, shelter, college, incomes and healthcare are individual based wants/needs that do not require government participation beyond reasonable regulation for fair market access. These are not rights. You wanting them to be does not make them so.


But fire depts and police depts are rights.  Explain yourself?

Queshank
  
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Demos
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #19 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 9:18pm
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As long as we're talking about history and individualism, it'd probably be efficacious to read Frederick Jackson Turner's essays on the frontier in American history, particularly its impact on the concept of individualism.
  
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