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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism" (Read 2,803 times)
maat
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #20 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 10:53pm
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Police and fire departments are also a luxury of modern society.  And while they've come and gone they were all at one time a "luxury of modern society."  Where do you get the idea they're a right or public utility? 


Provide for me please the distinction between a police officer being shot and needing healthcare and ... police depts to begin with?  If one is going to provide a police department and call that an acceptable amount of cooperation for an individual, how is providing treatment for him when he gets shot not an acceptable amount of cooperation?  For that matter the distinction between fire departments and ambulance services seems pretty contrived to me. 

As I suggested in my first post ... you are simply drawing an arbitrary zig zagging line and deciding for yourself that everything on one side of the line is acceptable cooperation and everything on the other side is not acceptable cooperation.  I'm merely asking you to clarify because the arguments you would use to say X is acceptable cooperation sound eerily like the arguments those leftists you're criticizing would use to say Y is acceptable cooperation.


But fire depts and police depts are rights.  Explain yourself?

Queshank


National defense is not a right either. Rights have nothing to do with basic societal infrastructure.

When you claim healthcare is a public service you are claiming that it as something we equally share. Police and fire, same as national defense are security infrastructure that everyone benefits from. I cannot protect my property and leave it to work or gather needs. I cannot sit outside my home with a garden hose and prevent a fire from destroying my neighborhood.

On the contrary, my personal health, does not endanger others. Fixing my health does not require societal cooperation. I do not need everyone to cooperate in order to have a tv. The free market will provide it. The free market cannot provide a unified legal system and police force.

There are certain things only governments can do. Healthcare is not one of them. College is not one of them. The fact that these markets are disasters is because they are not left to their proper market place.
  

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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #21 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 11:14pm
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To add, unlike a utility like water and electric. Healthcare can be provided by many different sources. Insurance can be purchased by many different sources. It is the governments job to make sure the market is fair.
  

Social Security, Medicare, Disability, Unemployment Benefits and Welfare are baby bottles for Socialist.
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Queshank
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #22 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 1:26pm
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maat wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 10:53pm:
National defense is not a right either. Rights have nothing to do with basic societal infrastructure.

When you claim healthcare is a public service you are claiming that it as something we equally share. Police and fire, same as national defense are security infrastructure that everyone benefits from. I cannot protect my property and leave it to work or gather needs. I cannot sit outside my home with a garden hose and prevent a fire from destroying my neighborhood.

On the contrary, my personal health, does not endanger others. Fixing my health does not require societal cooperation. I do not need everyone to cooperate in order to have a tv. The free market will provide it. The free market cannot provide a unified legal system and police force.

There are certain things only governments can do. Healthcare is not one of them. College is not one of them. The fact that these markets are disasters is because they are not left to their proper market place.


I appreciate this well reasoned response.

I have a nit to pick about the "equally share" part here because frankly, I have never once availed myself of the services of a fire department, and the only police services I've ever gotten were speeding tickets.  What am I getting out of this arrangement exactly?  What am I sharing?

And on the other hand, your personal health certainly does endanger others, as the entire measles debacle going on right now should be bringing into focus for people.  If I contract a disease because you didn't wash your hands before pushing the door open, how is that my fault?  If I wind up with salmonella because of tainted food at a restaurant I ate at, how can that be considered my fault?  If the government requires me to send my children to a public school, and as a result my kids are repeatedly getting sick (and by extension I am ... what parent hasn't experienced this phenomenon?) why should this burden be on me?

I'm having a bit of trouble seeing the difference between a disease spreading like wildfire and a wildfire spreading like ... well ... fire ... being different elements of a security infrastructure.

If your concern is government distorting marketplaces, what are your thoughts on the marketplace for police and fire departments?  Why are they exempt from being "marketplace" items in your view?  EDIT: When taking into consideration my response about what I view as similarities between fire/police services and hospital/education services.

If we are only talking about societal infrastructure and that's our concern here, there is a strong argument that can be made for both healthcare and education being more necessary elements of that infrastructure than police and fire departments.  Examples ... education on fire safety cuts down on fire disasters and lessens the need for fire departments.  Education provides one with a more stable economic outlook and has a direct impact on crime, lessening the needs for police departments. 

I'm only making these arguments because they seem to be the exact same rationalizations you're using to justify your exceptions for police and fire departments.  Do you see what I'm saying with that?

Queshank
« Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2015 at 1:38pm by »  
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petep
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #23 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 4:12pm
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you may wish to read William Bradford, on Plymouth...

the original charter for Plymouth was for a commune, sharing of resources, production...

after two years, it was clear this was a failed idea, and Bradford wrote about it...the lazy stayed lazy and the productive became lazy....they soon divided up plots and that's when the improvement started...

to cite the start of Plymouth as a commune to support your thesis is foolish, because it failed after two years, as written by the people whose original idea for the commune charter.

read your history....
  
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #24 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 4:22pm
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I think you are missing the point TL. In this case the term "Rugged Individualism" is not being used to unite the country, rather it is being used to divide the country setting poor against the wealthy. The right wing of society tells the poor to "pull up their boot straps", get an education a job, or something that is supposed to get them off the welfare rolls, and out of the right wings "pocket". Then most often the right will pass legislation that makes it close to impossible for the poor to do so without government assistance.


Who said, when the first settlers were here trying to survive, and they had to work as one said,” If you don’t work, you don’t eat”. It is the liberals that became the enablers that have caused the separation of the successful and the poor. All handouts now, no hand up and get to work.
Smiley
  

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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #25 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 4:28pm
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don't even bother arguing archie -

the left are masters at taking every failure of the left policies, and relabeling them as "right" policies...

how many times have you read on these boards that people like castro and hitler were not socialists, they were actually right wingers...

and here we have the OP claiming that rugged individualism of our ancestors was a myth and he is using the fact that Plymouth was founded as a commune per its charter, as support (and forgetting that the commune failed as documented by its leaders and dumped)

you really can't win - they are delusional
  
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #26 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 5:36pm
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petep wrote on Mar 5th, 2015 at 4:28pm:
don't even bother arguing archie -

the left are masters at taking every failure of the left policies, and relabeling them as "right" policies...

how many times have you read on these boards that people like castro and hitler were not socialists, they were actually right wingers...

and here we have the OP claiming that rugged individualism of our ancestors was a myth and he is using the fact that Plymouth was founded as a commune per its charter, as support (and forgetting that the commune failed as documented by its leaders and dumped)

you really can't win - they are delusional



Yes, drugs can do that to you. Note they are all pro pot.
Wink
Smiley
  

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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #27 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 5:43pm
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petep wrote on Mar 5th, 2015 at 4:28pm:
don't even bother arguing archie -

the left are masters at taking every failure of the left policies, and relabeling them as "right" policies...

how many times have you read on these boards that people like castro and hitler were not socialists, they were actually right wingers...

and here we have the OP claiming that rugged individualism of our ancestors was a myth and he is using the fact that Plymouth was founded as a commune per its charter, as support (and forgetting that the commune failed as documented by its leaders and dumped)

you really can't win - they are delusional


Not really. It is fools like you who are delusional. While you claim that the Mayflower Compact was a contributing force to the failure of the Plymouth community you offer no proof of such. So, like so many arguments of your kind, your "facts" are fictional. Most colonies of that time failed, and it was not due to some form of laziness.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h524.html


Like you said though, read your history before spreading your falsehoods:

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/colonyprofiles/a/Plymouth-Colony.htm

The Mayflower Compact was the foundational document for the Plymouth Colony. The fact that it was a covenant whereby the settlers would subordinate their rights to follow laws passed by the government to ensure protection and survival made it a unique document. As previously stated, it set a precedent and was indeed an influential document for the founding fathers as they created the US Constitution.

Despite repeated efforts over the years, the Plymouth community was unable to secure a formal charter from the Crown. The Mayflower Compact continued to serve as the basis of government until the small colony was merged with Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1691.



And then people wonder why I call others liar:

http://www.history.com/topics/william-bradford

fter a brief experiment with the “common course,” a sort of primitive agrarian communism, the colony quickly centered around private subsistence agriculture. This was facilitated by Bradford’s decision to distribute land among all the settlers, not just members of the company. In 1627 he and four others assumed the colony’s debt to the merchant adventurers who had helped finance their immigration in return for a monopoly of the fur trading and fishing industries. Owing to some malfeasance on the part of their English mercantile factors and the decline of the fur trade, Bradford and his colleagues were unable to retire this debt until 1648, and then only at great personal expense.
  
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #28 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 6:12pm
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Archie wrote on Mar 5th, 2015 at 5:36pm:
Yes, drugs can do that to you. Note they are all pro pot.

By your logic, you're on something a lot stronger than pot. Meth? Cocaine? LSD?
  
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maat
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Re: The Myth Of "Rugged Individualism"
Reply #29 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 9:17pm
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I appreciate this well reasoned response.

I have a nit to pick about the "equally share" part here because frankly, I have never once availed myself of the services of a fire department, and the only police services I've ever gotten were speeding tickets.  What am I getting out of this arrangement exactly?  What am I sharing?

And on the other hand, your personal health certainly does endanger others, as the entire measles debacle going on right now should be bringing into focus for people.  If I contract a disease because you didn't wash your hands before pushing the door open, how is that my fault?  If I wind up with salmonella because of tainted food at a restaurant I ate at, how can that be considered my fault?  If the government requires me to send my children to a public school, and as a result my kids are repeatedly getting sick (and by extension I am ... what parent hasn't experienced this phenomenon?) why should this burden be on me?

I'm having a bit of trouble seeing the difference between a disease spreading like wildfire and a wildfire spreading like ... well ... fire ... being different elements of a security infrastructure.

If your concern is government distorting marketplaces, what are your thoughts on the marketplace for police and fire departments?  Why are they exempt from being "marketplace" items in your view?  EDIT: When taking into consideration my response about what I view as similarities between fire/police services and hospital/education services.

If we are only talking about societal infrastructure and that's our concern here, there is a strong argument that can be made for both healthcare and education being more necessary elements of that infrastructure than police and fire departments.  Examples ... education on fire safety cuts down on fire disasters and lessens the need for fire departments.  Education provides one with a more stable economic outlook and has a direct impact on crime, lessening the needs for police departments. 

I'm only making these arguments because they seem to be the exact same rationalizations you're using to justify your exceptions for police and fire departments.  Do you see what I'm saying with that?

Queshank


You nor I can defend our homes from a foreign invader, therefore we cooperate and employ the government to defend our country.

You nor I can go to work and pursue happiness if we had to protect our own property. You get services from police without direct contact. They provide a deterrent to theft/?.

The fire department is a societal insurance to put out fires, where they happen. The fact that you have not had one does not mean you do not or will not benefit from it. I personally, have had to call the fire department to protect my business. As with utility lines, it is more efficient to have one government sanctioned police and fire. General healthcare does not fall under this rule. Education, like healthcare can be provided by different organizations. If you believe it is important that everyone learn fire prevention, it can be a regulation of government, but does not have to have government buildings and staff to implement. As a rule, when organizations have competition and have to answer to clients, you get better services, this is not the case with government education and certainly would not with government healthcare.

Individual healthcare is a personal event, in most cases. I do agree that we need unification concerning disease control, but this does not justify provision of every individuals every need.

  

Social Security, Medicare, Disability, Unemployment Benefits and Welfare are baby bottles for Socialist.
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