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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe" (Read 1,145 times)
Frank1
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George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Mar 3rd, 2015 at 5:42pm
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Mainly what I got out of this is the astounding arrogance, or perhaps astounding historical ignorance, of Europeans.

I have pointed out before (this man only confirms what I knew) that Europeans, as they seem to think presently, have thought in the past that they overcame their historical problems only to find out, in a massive catastrophe, that oops, maybe we are not as "enlightened" as we thought.

I saw another interview of Friedman's where he mentions a book written in 1910, by a well-respected European scholar, claiming there could never be another major war in Europe, because the European economies were too inter-linked. 

Basically, this man's point is that Europe is the same as it has always been: a teeming cauldron of potential conflicts with the ability to burn down everyone else when they catch fire.

He points out that, whereas the United States Constitution simply lists the "pursuit of happiness" as a goal, ("pursuit" being the key word), the European Union is pledged to "Peace and Prosperity," with no qualifiers.  So, what if prosperity begins to collapse in Europe, as it has collapsed in Southern Europe since 2008?

Of course, not so much touched on here, there is also the European moral arrogance.  For centuries now Europeans have considered themselves at the cutting edge of human civilization, with the most refined and civilized values (until a Hitler comes along), and they still do.  They cannot understand us poor American bumpkins who still hold Christian values to at least some extent, and who are not as up-to-date with the latest moral fashions emanating from London, Paris and Berlin.  It is European leftist values that dominate the global institutions, and through which Europe arrogantly beats everyone else over the head.

What is worse, thinking (of course wrongly) that they have overcome their own past, Europe now invites in foreigners from all over the planet.  So not only are all the centuries old conflicts just beneath the surface (as the sovereign debt crisis illustrates), waiting to re-emerge, now you have the new conflicts between native and foreign elements in these countries.

One could say: Europeans, a people, or collection of peoples, who will never learn.

Suck it, Europe!   Tongue

  


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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #1 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 6:07pm
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Frank1 wrote on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 5:42pm:
He points out that, whereas the United States Constitution simply lists the "pursuit of happiness" as a goal, ("pursuit" being the key word), the European Union is pledged to "Peace and Prosperity," with no qualifiers.  So, what if prosperity begins to collapse in Europe, as it has collapsed in Southern Europe since 2008?


What then? Adapt and get used to a more sober life obviously.  Our grandparents had a lot worse experiences.

Quote:
Of course, not so much touched on here, there is also the European moral arrogance.  For centuries now Europeans have considered themselves at the cutting edge of human civilization, with the most refined and civilized values (until a Hitler comes along), and they still do.  They cannot understand us poor American bumpkins who still hold Christian values to at least some extent, and who are not as up-to-date with the latest moral fashions emanating from London, Paris and Berlin. 


Bumpkins?  I like the word 'yokel', like in 'cletus, the slack jawed yokel'.  The simpsons rule. Smiley

Quote:
It is European leftist values that dominate the global institutions, and through which Europe arrogantly beats everyone else over the head.


Because those values are superior.  not my fault, just the result of moral evolution.

Quote:
What is worse, thinking (of course wrongly) that they have overcome their own past, Europe now invites in foreigners from all over the planet.  So not only are all the centuries old conflicts just beneath the surface (as the sovereign debt crisis illustrates), waiting to re-emerge, now you have the new conflicts between native and foreign elements in these countries.

One could say: [i]Europeans, a people, or collection of peoples, who will never learn.


Well, imigration IS a major problem, just like in the US.  let us know when you found the answer.
But about 'overcoming the past' :  I can tell you europe sees its past, every day again and is remebering it.
The place where I work usually is a monument, where in 1345 a famous man was killed.  I see the memorial plaque every day.
Nothing is forgotten.
  
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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #2 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 7:26pm
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senecaII wrote on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 6:07pm:
Because those values are superior.  not my fault, just the result of moral evolution.


Nope, they are inferior, you can be sure of that.  If Europe had superior values it would not have made such a mess of itself over the last two centuries in its internecine conflicts not to mention the mess it made of many or most of its former colonies.

Quote:
Well, imigration IS a major problem, just like in the US.  let us know when you found the answer.


It is more of a problem in Europe, due to the fact that European countries are ethnically based.

At any rate, South Korea and Japan have exceedingly low birthrates, yet they are not inviting in hordes of foreigners...why?  I guess they put the integrity of their own cultures ahead of mere economic growth, which certainly is the right thing to do in the long-run whatever negative economic consequences it will entail in the short run.


Quote:
But about 'overcoming the past' :  I can tell you europe sees its past, every day again and is remembering it.
The place where I work usually is a monument, where in 1345 a famous man was killed.  I see the memorial plaque every day.
Nothing is forgotten.


Plaques and statues are just that: plaques and statues.  Their presence does not signify a general deep historical knowledge on the part of the populace.
« Last Edit: Mar 3rd, 2015 at 7:35pm by Frank1 »  


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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #3 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 7:28pm
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senecaII wrote on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 6:07pm:
What then? Adapt and get used to a more sober life obviously.  Our grandparents had a lot worse experiences.



If European history is any guide, rather than adapt and sober up, your continent will be ravaged by wars and revolutions, or at the very least by extreme political parties.
  


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Limey
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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #4 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 5:42am
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Frank1 wrote on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 5:42pm:
Mainly what I got out of this is the astounding arrogance, or perhaps astounding historical ignorance, of Europeans.

I have pointed out before (this man only confirms what I knew) that Europeans, as they seem to think presently, have thought in the past that they overcame their historical problems only to find out, in a massive catastrophe, that oops, maybe we are not as "enlightened" as we thought.

I saw another interview of Friedman's where he mentions a book written in 1910, by a well-respected European scholar, claiming there could never be another major war in Europe, because the European economies were too inter-linked. 

Basically, this man's point is that Europe is the same as it has always been: a teeming cauldron of potential conflicts with the ability to burn down everyone else when they catch fire.

He points out that, whereas the United States Constitution simply lists the "pursuit of happiness" as a goal, ("pursuit" being the key word), the European Union is pledged to "Peace and Prosperity," with no qualifiers.  So, what if prosperity begins to collapse in Europe, as it has collapsed in Southern Europe since 2008?

Of course, not so much touched on here, there is also the European moral arrogance.  For centuries now Europeans have considered themselves at the cutting edge of human civilization, with the most refined and civilized values (until a Hitler comes along), and they still do.  They cannot understand us poor American bumpkins who still hold Christian values to at least some extent, and who are not as up-to-date with the latest moral fashions emanating from London, Paris and Berlin.  It is European leftist values that dominate the global institutions, and through which Europe arrogantly beats everyone else over the head.

What is worse, thinking (of course wrongly) that they have overcome their own past, Europe now invites in foreigners from all over the planet.  So not only are all the centuries old conflicts just beneath the surface (as the sovereign debt crisis illustrates), waiting to re-emerge, now you have the new conflicts between native and foreign elements in these countries.

One could say: Europeans, a people, or collection of peoples, who will never learn.

Suck it, Europe!   Tongue



I'm off to Europe next week, I'll ask around for views on your post.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #5 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 5:48am
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senecaII wrote on Mar 3rd, 2015 at 6:07pm:
But about 'overcoming the past' :  I can tell you europe sees its past, every day again and is remebering it.
The place where I work usually is a monument, where in 1345 a famous man was killed.  I see the memorial plaque every day.
Nothing is forgotten.


I'm looking out of my office window at the `1st Century Roman walls, which were used, when they were 1500 years old, in our Civil War.

I am not sure about your point, that people remember.

We may have a folk memory of these things, but do we still think about the real, live issues of today in the light of conflicts and resolutions from centuries ago?

Our Civil War was about the old question, who rules? mixed in with a healthy dose of religious bigotry and class conflict.

Luckily the religious element has gone from our polity, but who rules? is still a live question, just not one that many people think about much.

Perhaps it was always so, I dunno.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #6 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 4:12pm
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Can somebody show this ancient Hoosier where "the pursuit of happiness " is to be found in our Constitution ? I know it is in The Declaration of Independence, but..... Huh


http://constitutioncenter.org/constitution/full-text
  

Let a man meet a she-bear robbed of her cubs rather than a fool in his folly. Proverbs 17:12 (ESV)
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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #7 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 9:18pm
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MikeGlosterIII wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 4:12pm:
Can somebody show this ancient Hoosier where "the pursuit of happiness " is to be found in our Constitution ? I know it is in The Declaration of Independence, but..... Huh


http://constitutioncenter.org/constitution/full-text


You are right, it is in the DOI, not the Constitution.
  


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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #8 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 10:01pm
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Limey wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 5:42am:
I'm off to Europe next week, I'll ask around for views on your post.


Tongue

They are having segments on NPR about the life of Muslims in Europe.  Tomorrow is Germany, and they did a brief intro. of what they will be discussing as concerns Muslims in Germany.  The people interviewed said native Germans consider Muslims 'Auslander.'  Asked when they stop being Auslander: "When you die" was the reply.  I have heard this is basically true even for third generation Turks who have secularized: they are still Auslander.  They said only 15% of German companies are actually hiring non-Germans (or at least non-Europeans - it was a little unclear whether the bias was against non-Germans generally or just immigrants with Arabic and Turkish sounding names) though something like 29% of youth in Germany today are either wholly or partly of foreign descent.

I do get the idea that England and France, perhaps because they are both traditionally more diverse (France for instance is Latin's, Celts, Germans and Normans) and had large, diverse world empires are at least somewhat better at dealing with the immigrants than traditionally less diverse countries like Germany that also did not possess large, and diverse world empires.

The Japanese do not deal well with foreigners living among them, but then again they also do not seek to bring all kinds of foreigners into Japan, thus avoiding potential internal problems.  But the left in a country like Germany would never admit that maybe their countrymen are not suited for mass immigration, until perhaps the situation blows up; and I will admit, it would be pretty damn disheartening, for multiple reasons, now that all these immigrants are in Europe, to say "Well we just cannot bring ourselves to accept them." 

Would it have been better to never let in so many foreigners in the first place?  Now, I do not say this to be racist.  This has nothing to do with the idea that European culture in general, or any particular country within Europe, is 'superior' to non-European cultures in some objective fashion.  I am just saying that if bringing in foreigners is just going to be one more source of conflict, and potentially an extremely dangerous one, would it not be better to strictly limit immigration?

This next is anecdotal, but I think of an old WWII vet who said to me bluntly, of the Europeans: "They'll fight again."
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: George Friedman, "Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
Reply #9 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 10:21pm
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Frank1 wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 10:01pm:
Tongue

They are having segments on NPR about the life of Muslims in Europe.  Tomorrow is Germany, and they did a brief intro. of what they will be discussing as concerns Muslims in Germany.  The people interviewed said native Germans consider Muslims 'Auslander.'  Asked when they stop being Auslander: "When you die" was the reply.  I have heard this is basically true even for third generation Turks who have secularized: they are still Auslander.  They said only 15% of German companies are actually hiring non-Germans (or at least non-Europeans - it was a little unclear whether the bias was against non-Germans generally or just immigrants with Arabic and Turkish sounding names) though something like 29% of youth in Germany today are either wholly or partly of foreign descent.

I do get the idea that England and France, perhaps because they are both traditionally more diverse (France for instance is Latin's, Celts, Germans and Normans) and had large, diverse world empires are at least somewhat better at dealing with the immigrants than traditionally less diverse countries like Germany that also did not possess large, and diverse world empires.

The Japanese do not deal well with foreigners living among them, but then again they also do not seek to bring all kinds of foreigners into Japan, thus avoiding potential internal problems.  But the left in a country like Germany would never admit that maybe their countrymen are not suited for mass immigration, until perhaps the situation blows up; and I will admit, it would be pretty damn disheartening, for multiple reasons, now that all these immigrants are in Europe, to say "Well we just cannot bring ourselves to accept them." 

Would it have been better to never let in so many foreigners in the first place?  Now, I do not say this to be racist.  This has nothing to do with the idea that European culture in general, or any particular country within Europe, is 'superior' to non-European cultures in some objective fashion.  I am just saying that if bringing in foreigners is just going to be one more source of conflict, and potentially an extremely dangerous one, would it not be better to strictly limit immigration?

This next is anecdotal, but I think of an old WWII vet who said to me bluntly, of the Europeans: "They'll fight again."


Dunno.

There are moronic nationalists and tribal minded dickheads in every country.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

Germany, possibly, has morethan some.

France is not immune.

Fight again?

I give you the Bosnian wars, of which I bear physical and mental scars. Europe already has fought again.

That was kinda a civil war.

We won't have a major country, catastrophic nation v nation war again though, not while the EU holds, and not for ten years after it folds.

There are not enough differences.

Like the IRA.
They had to give up their murder campaign when it dawned on the Republican nutters-well, the community that had supported them- that the functional difference, in the late 20thC, between London rule and Dublin rule was zero.

Same goes, as long as they keep the finances together, for the whole continent.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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