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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers (Read 2,025 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #10 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 3:07pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 1:53pm:
I looked at the BLS data that the blog post in the OP cited.  It posts data about wages alone, not total compensation.  Nowhere are stock options, restricted stock, golden parachutes, severance packages, and other perks.


Right, that information must be sourced elsewhere.

Quote:
It is highly amusing that the blogger is accusing anyone else of "selective use of the facts".

Based on what?

He showed how people use a very narrow metric of CEO compensation in order to paint an inaccurate picture, not to mention a narrow metric of worker pay.

Have you found an inaccuracy in his argument?
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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TowardLiberty
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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #11 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 3:15pm
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If you are losing the argument, and know you do not have  a leg to stand on, you always fall back on your old reliable excuses. I think you always call that kind of tactic an "ad hom". Grin


That's more ad hom.

And you have said nothing to suggest that there is anything about what I have said that is not correct. So I don't know how you are winning anything.

Quote:
Ahhh, the old "comprehension" problem. The article mentioned nothing about how fast the wages of the average worker grew, only that CEO pay did not grow as fast as in the past.


Actually, it did. And I pasted it again for you to read.

So yes, that old comprehension problem is back again.

And it never really left.

Quote:
Oh my, yet another "ad hom", and still a false one.


What's good for the goose is good for the gander, don't you know?

GIGO, Sioux. GIGO.

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And place more people in poverty, dependent on government assistance, while increasing the wealth of the 1%.


Sounds like the delusions of someone who does not understand the market process.

In reality, free markets do the very opposite of what you imagine they do. And regulation does the opposite of what you imagine it does.

Just about everything you think you know about how things work is wrong.

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As we discussed before the effect on lower skilled workers is minimal at best. 

That is not what we have discussed. We have discussed how lower skilled workers were made worse off because of minimum wage price controls, and in no small measure, and we have looked at only a fraction of the studies that bear this out.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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forgotten centrist
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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #12 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 4:00pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 3:07pm:
Right, that information must be sourced elsewhere.


It is not sourced elsewhere.  I found the exact numbers he cited, in the link he used as a source.  He said "the BLS data for all CEOs says CEOs made on average $138,380 in 2003 and $178,400 in 2013".  Found it.  And on that metric, he is basing his claim that CEO pay rose at a slower rate than worker pay.

But that metric is for wages alone.  He is accusing people of cherrypicking data, when that is exactly what he has done in his blog post.  He raises a good point in that it's not fair to compare the top fraction of 1% of CEOs to the entire labor market.  But it is equally unfair to base his findings on one measure of total compensation, when CEOs can often draw extraordinary income from those other channels.
  

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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #13 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 4:11pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 4:00pm:
It is not sourced elsewhere.  I found the exact numbers he cited, in the link he used as a source.  He said "the BLS data for all CEOs says CEOs made on average $138,380 in 2003 and $178,400 in 2013".  Found it.  And on that metric, he is basing his claim that CEO pay rose at a slower rate than worker pay.

But that metric is for wages alone.  He is accusing people of cherrypicking data, when that is exactly what he has done in his blog post.  He raises a good point in that it's not fair to compare the top fraction of 1% of CEOs to the entire labor market.  But it is equally unfair to base his findings on one measure of total compensation, when CEOs can often draw extraordinary income from those other channels.


Alright, yeah, that's a fair point.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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wyattstorch2004
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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #14 - Mar 4th, 2015 at 9:43pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 1:53pm:
I looked at the BLS data that the blog post in the OP cited.  It posts data about wages alone, not total compensation.  Nowhere are stock options, restricted stock, golden parachutes, severance packages, and other perks.

It is highly amusing that the blogger is accusing anyone else of "selective use of the facts".


Didn't they leave out non-wage compensation in both categories?

Have the non-wage portion of worker compensation been rising?  What you might call "the all in cost"?

Do you have stats on these stock options, restricted stock, golden parachutes, severance packages and other perks?  I am sure they are moderately common in S&P 500 companies.  But that is the whole point of this thread: that so often CEOs, generally, and CEOs of the 500 of the largest companies are seen as synonymous.  While, in reality, they are not.
  
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forgotten centrist
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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #15 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 2:34pm
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wyattstorch2004 wrote on Mar 4th, 2015 at 9:43pm:
Didn't they leave out non-wage compensation in both categories?

Have the non-wage portion of worker compensation been rising?  What you might call "the all in cost"?

Do you have stats on these stock options, restricted stock, golden parachutes, severance packages and other perks?  I am sure they are moderately common in S&P 500 companies.  But that is the whole point of this thread: that so often CEOs, generally, and CEOs of the 500 of the largest companies are seen as synonymous.  While, in reality, they are not.


You are welcome to find that data and post it here -- my LNF time is limited so I won't do your research for you.  My point is absolutely relevant that this blogger accused people of picking data points, and then went on to focus on his own chosen data point.  Dishonest.

With regard to your point that the majority of CEOs of smaller companies get compensated much less, I imagine that a majority of them still do hold large fractions of their company stock, preferred stock, etc.  And they, through their hand-picked boards, are also able to pay themselves through dividends what they won't pay through wages.  These arrangements are common among CEOs.
  

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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #16 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 8:24pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Mar 5th, 2015 at 2:34pm:
You are welcome to find that data and post it here -- my LNF time is limited so I won't do your research for you.


With all due respect, it was your claim, and thus your research to do.

Quote:
My point is absolutely relevant that this blogger accused people of picking data points, and then went on to focus on his own chosen data point.  Dishonest.


I don't think I claimed otherwise.

Quote:
With regard to your point that the majority of CEOs of smaller companies get compensated much less, I imagine that a majority of them still do hold large fractions of their company stock, preferred stock, etc.


Stock that, in it's entirety, is probably worth a fraction of the compensation of the often depicted S%P 500 CEO's wage.  But, again, perhaps you have statistics regarding this.

Quote:
And they, through their hand-picked boards, are also able to pay themselves through dividends what they won't pay through wages.  These arrangements are common among CEOs.


Again, this is just the sort of stereotyping and generalization that I was talking about in my first reply in this thread.  Do you have any stats on this?

I am not saying it isn't true, just that I don't see any support for the claims.

Also, as I think I mentioned (maybe not), every single worker that works within the laws of the US gets non-wage compensation as well.
  
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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #17 - Mar 5th, 2015 at 11:03pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Mar 5th, 2015 at 2:34pm:
You are welcome to find that data and post it here -- my LNF time is limited so I won't do your research for you.  My point is absolutely relevant that this blogger accused people of picking data points, and then went on to focus on his own chosen data point.  Dishonest.

With regard to your point that the majority of CEOs of smaller companies get compensated much less, I imagine that a majority of them still do hold large fractions of their company stock, preferred stock, etc.  And they, through their hand-picked boards, are also able to pay themselves through dividends what they won't pay through wages.  These arrangements are common among CEOs.


Common maybe among massive corporations.  But you're average CEO, which will likely be just some dude who incorporated a small local company and fail within a couple years, will not have stock options to take advantage of.
  

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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #18 - Mar 6th, 2015 at 9:23am
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New pick up trucks 45,000.00?  they need to bring down the cost of products and make better quality then maybe people could afford vehicles and give then business.
  
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Re: CEO Pay Is Not Rising Faster Than Pay For Average Workers
Reply #19 - Mar 6th, 2015 at 11:52am
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Lomelis wrote on Mar 5th, 2015 at 11:03pm:
Common maybe among massive corporations.  But you're average CEO, which will likely be just some dude who incorporated a small local company and fail within a couple years, will not have stock options to take advantage of. 


According to the article posted less then 20% of the CEO's actually "work". The other 80% rely on stocks, dividends, etc.
  
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