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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!” (Read 10,910 times)
Demos
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #90 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 9:52am
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 12:31am:
Some case law (from Wikipedia):

In R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, (1992), the issue of freedom to express hatred arose again when a gang of white people burned a cross in the front yard of a black family. The local ordinance in St. Paul, Minnesota, criminalized such racist and hate-filled expressions and the teenager was charged thereunder. Associate justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the Supreme Court, held that the prohibition against hate speech was unconstitutional as it contravened the First Amendment. The Supreme Court struck down the ordinance. Scalia explicated the fighting words exception as follows: “The reason why fighting words are categorically excluded from the protection of the First Amendment is not that their content communicates any particular idea, but that their content embodies a particularly intolerable (and socially unnecessary) mode of expressing whatever idea the speaker wishes to convey”.[79] Because the hate speech ordinance was not concerned with the mode of expression, but with the content of expression, it was a violation of the freedom of speech. Thus, the Supreme Court embraced the idea that hate speech is permissible unless it will lead to imminent hate violence.

The city criminalized speech; it's not analogous to what happened in this case.

The SAE idiots speech wasn't criminalized. They weren't threatened with criminal punishments. They lost their affiliation with the University which afforded them certain benefits.

Here is what is relevant to speech on university campuses.

Their speech would be protected if OU had a speech code they said the students were violating (Source), but it doesn't seem like OU had such a code.
  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #91 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:21pm
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crepe05 wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 5:22am:
That's an interesting point.  Does that really make a difference?  Talking or singing about hanging a person from a tree really bothers me.


Here's the difference:  "fighting words", that is words spoken directly to another person which are likely to provoke violence, can be outlawed.  So it matters if there were any blacks on the bus to hear the speech.
  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #92 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:23pm
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crepe05 wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:13am:
I equate it to yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, but others don't agree with me.  I think if someone mentioned hanging a public figure from a tree that it would warrant a visit from the feds.  Maybe it's a matter of the importance of the person being sung about.  I don't know.  Heck, I could be totally wrong.  Just my opinion.


You would have to offer examples of rap songs which immediately caused a cop to be killed.
  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #93 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:24pm
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Demos wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 9:32am:
Ok patrick.


Ok Demos.
  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #94 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:25pm
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Demos wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 9:32am:
The point was making sure you knew the University of Oklahoma wasn't private, which you seem to have assumed.


I've said, what, five times that neither government entities nor private entities with substantial government involvement can suppress free speech?
  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #95 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:27pm
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Greg55_99 wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 9:52am:
Again, this isn't about free speech, it's about willful discrimination which VIOLATES federal law.  These little assholes are chanting there will NEVER be a n*****r in their fraternity.  THEY are the ones HIRING new pledges that apply to come in and THEY are the ones that make the decision to accept or reject them.  From what I'm reading, the last time a Black person was accepted in the OU chapter of SAE was 14 years ago, I'd say they took their bigotry and acted on it by keeping minorities OUT. So, they chant "there will never be a n****r in SAE" and for 14 years no Black pledges accepted.  Now, if I were to take this to a court with a jury, I'd get a conviction.  It's a slam dunk. 

Greg


You're VERY befuddled and confused.  Singing a song isn't discrimination.  To do that, you have to show that blacks applied and were systematically rejected.  They had on the news a black guy who had been a member three years ago.
  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #96 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:30pm
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Demos wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 9:52am:
The city criminalized speech; it's not analogous to what happened in this case.

The SAE idiots speech wasn't criminalized. They weren't threatened with criminal punishments. They lost their affiliation with the University which afforded them certain benefits.

Here is what is relevant to speech on university campuses.

Their speech would be protected if OU had a speech code they said the students were violating (Source), but it doesn't seem like OU had such a code.


In essence, it's the same thing.  In both case unconstitutional rules were set up by entities (city/university) subject to the First Amendment. They punished people for what should have been free speech actions.
  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #97 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:31pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:25pm:
I've said, what, five times that neither government entities nor private entities with substantial government involvement can suppress free speech?

And I've said, what, five times that the issue was correcting your error in saying that OU is a private university.
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:46pm by Demos »  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #98 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:35pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:30pm:
In essence, it's the same thing.  In both case unconstitutional rules were set up by entities (city/university) subject to the First Amendment. They punished people for what should have been free speech actions.

While I was looking at cases involving free speech and universities, I came across one where a university fired an employee for an editorial she wrote on gay rights. The firing was upheld. Would you agree with that ruling?

It's more relevant to this situation.

EDIT: The University has now expelled the students. This - not the severing of ties with the fraternity, which was originally being discussed - is what will raise a Free Speech issue. See here and here.
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2015 at 7:15pm by Demos »  
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Re: “There will never be a n----r in S.A.E!”
Reply #99 - Mar 11th, 2015 at 11:07pm
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Demos wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 6:35pm:
While I was looking at cases involving free speech and universities, I came across one where a university fired an employee for an editorial she wrote on gay rights. The firing was upheld. Would you agree with that ruling?

It's more relevant to this situation.


Obviously, I wouldn't agree with it in a million years.  My position has ALWAYS been to obey the First Amendment and allow a free market place of ideas.  The ideas will survive or fail, just as commercial market items survive or fail, not from the edicts of some self-important unanswerable government bureaucrat.

  
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