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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law. (Read 2,480 times)
Limey
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #10 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 12:30pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Apr 7th, 2015 at 12:11pm:
Libertarians have an objective view of right and wrong. It is summed up in this phrase: anything that's peaceful.

So I don't believe they belong in that list of groups who see right and wrong in relative terms.



Hmm yeah but.. on here I have often (can't remember which of the Libertarian Brotherhood  Wink) discussed the situation where an inequality of means - in a negotiation over an exchange - leads to somehting happening which looks like extortion, or unfair tratment.

Occasionally I have found that, so long as it's peaceful, that's OK in the view of the Libertarian.

I suppose it depends on the feeling about what is 'peaceful'.

If it's just an absence of violence, I would take a position against you.

If it is 'doing no harm', to include not exploiting another person, I would be right with you under the black flag Brother.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #11 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 12:42pm
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Limey wrote on Apr 7th, 2015 at 12:30pm:
Hmm yeah but.. on here I have often (can't remember which of the Libertarian Brotherhood  Wink) discussed the situation where an inequality of means - in a negotiation over an exchange - leads to somehting happening which looks like extortion, or unfair tratment.

Occasionally I have found that, so long as it's peaceful, that's OK in the view of the Libertarian.

I suppose it depends on the feeling about what is 'peaceful'.

If it's just an absence of violence, I would take a position against you.

If it is 'doing no harm', to include not exploiting another person, I would be right with you under the black flag Brother.

Well, extortion involves more than just some unfairness, or inequality of means, it also involves some threat of force.

And yes, the libertarian is generally OK with peaceful acts between consenting adults. The libertarian would not consider a trade between two unequals as something immoral.

Doing no harm is not a suitable threshold because of the subjective nature of harm. Anyone can be harmed by anything.

Where as interpersonal violence can be objectively determined to exist or not.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Limey
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #12 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 12:48pm
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OK, there's probably a different thread in this to pick at it a bit more, but how about the situations where an inequality of resource means that someone, say a large employer, can really drive a hard bargain which the other person is effectively powerless to counter? If your choice is (to paint in broad strokes) a crappy wage, in a dangerous job or starvation.... Is that really OK?

I'll be off LNF for a couple of days by the way - gotta go and look at a power station where the boiler blew up, be busy until the weekend I suspect!
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #13 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 1:01pm
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Aperson should have a individual right to pick n choose who they do business with or what religion they do or don't like its called freedom.

if someone refuses to do business with you move on to someone that will.10-4
  
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #14 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 1:19pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 7th, 2015 at 10:10am:
Note after Shiria the word law, not faith.  If there is an attempt to impose a law that is directly in contrast to our Constitution it is void.  Thus Shiria law will never be allowed to be the law of the land.


Sharia is an essential part of the Muslim religion. There are many citations I could use. This is one:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/538793/Shariah

While I agree Sharia will not be "the law of the land," why couldn't it be used to insist women coming into a particular shop be covered up and accompanied by a male relative? This is absurd, of course, because non-Muslims would avoid the shop like the plague and would have plenty of other shops to choose from but, hypothetically speaking, wouldn't RFRA allow the shop owner to do this?




  
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #15 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 1:34pm
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Fiddler wrote on Apr 7th, 2015 at 11:08am:
Nor will the Levitical law you are so desperate to see entrenched.


I'd like to see any support whatsoever for the claim that Seawolf is desperate to see Levitical law entrenched.
  

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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #16 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 2:28pm
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Limey wrote on Apr 7th, 2015 at 12:48pm:
OK, there's probably a different thread in this to pick at it a bit more, but how about the situations where an inequality of resource means that someone, say a large employer, can really drive a hard bargain which the other person is effectively powerless to counter? If your choice is (to paint in broad strokes) a crappy wage, in a dangerous job or starvation.... Is that really OK?

I'll be off LNF for a couple of days by the way - gotta go and look at a power station where the boiler blew up, be busy until the weekend I suspect!


The answer can go either way, depending on how the resource was acquired.

If it was acquired justly, through homestead, exchange or gift, then all is well. In many instances a firm will possess some set of characteristics that cannot be replicated by others and this allows them large market share.

Others cannot compete in this realm and are forced to hire out their labor in another industry, for substantially lower incomes.

Providing that the dominant firm is not maintaining it's market share by virtue of some sort of legal barrier to competition, such as a license or grant of IP, then all is well from a libertarian perspective.

This is to say that inequality itself is not seen as a morally or ethically problematic state of affairs, providing that we are dealing with a "natural" form of inequality.

I do agree that the issue deserves its own thread.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #17 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 5:03pm
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Mercy For All wrote on Apr 7th, 2015 at 1:34pm:
I'd like to see any support whatsoever for the claim that Seawolf is desperate to see Levitical law entrenched.

When he has nothing else to say, he's always good at building a strawman arguments though.  I have gotten to where I don't pay too much attention to his pivots from my threads.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #18 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 5:16pm
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I believe moral conscience exemptions from the law.  I am against the draft. 

No one should be made to serve in the military.

Greg
  

&&&&"You want the TRUTH? You can't handle THE TRUTH!!"
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Re: Marist Poll Shows A majority believes in moral conscience exemptions from the law.
Reply #19 - Apr 7th, 2015 at 6:14pm
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Mercy For All wrote on Apr 7th, 2015 at 1:34pm:
I'd like to see any support whatsoever for the claim that Seawolf is desperate to see Levitical law entrenched.


Like roughly 100% of 'Christians', only the things he likes.
  
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