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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage! (Read 3,613 times)
Zephyr
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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #60 - Apr 8th, 2015 at 6:35pm
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Phillip 2.0 wrote on Apr 8th, 2015 at 4:52pm:
The difference is, tribal nations have their own sovereignty. The case of the pizzeria is a matter that can have constitutional ramifications, as there are questions of if the Indiana law in question that brought about much of this controversy can withstand the Equal Protections Clause or even the Commerce Clause which was used throughout the 50s and 60s in civil rights cases.


So yeah, while it's reprehensible that the Indian Nations are endorsing bigotry, there's a pretty significant difference between what goes on in their jurisdiction and what goes on in an U.S. state's jurisdiction.

You mean where a reporter asked a hypothetical question and the girl answered?
The Pizzarea where no discrimination actually took place

The ones who are getting death threats over something that never happened?
  
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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #61 - Apr 8th, 2015 at 6:49pm
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glen65 wrote on Apr 8th, 2015 at 6:11pm:
Then why do some appear hesitant to do so?


How the hell should l know? Ask them.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Phillip 2.0
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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #62 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:23am
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glen65 wrote on Apr 8th, 2015 at 5:38pm:
This thread is about native Americans who are against it. I'm simply asking, do you see them as bigots for not accepting it?



I pretty much already stated that by calling it reprehensible.
  
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EF
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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #63 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:13pm
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I don't know that I would call people who are opposed to gay marriage bigots.  To me, a bigot is someone who hates another person generally because of some personal trait about which that person can do  nothing.  Such as race, ethnicity, or religion.  I do know a few people who, in addition to being opposed to gay marriage, hate homosexuals.  But not many.  Most of the people I know who are opposed to gay marriage do not hate homosexuals.  And if you try to engage them in a conversation about their opposition to gay marriage, you quickly realize it's emotional, not rational.  They are unable to present one argument that is even rational to them, and generally want to end the conversation.  But they're not bigots. They're not even idiots or halfwits.  They're just people being their emotional selves.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #64 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:19pm
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Apr 8th, 2015 at 3:51pm:
B.) Misguided native nations making a weird political stand unrelated to religion


This is as weird as your idea that the Nazi's invented the term "white" as a race descriptor.

How do you know this stand against gay marriage has nothing to do with Native religion?

Is "gay marriage" a traditional Native American practice?
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #65 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:24pm
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EF wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:13pm:
I don't know that I would call people who are opposed to gay marriage bigots.  To me, a bigot is someone who hates another person generally because of some personal trait about which that person can do  nothing.  Such as race, ethnicity, or religion.  I do know a few people who, in addition to being opposed to gay marriage, hate homosexuals.  But not many.  Most of the people I know who are opposed to gay marriage do not hate homosexuals.  And if you try to engage them in a conversation about their opposition to gay marriage, you quickly realize it's emotional, not rational.  They are unable to present one argument that is even rational to them, and generally want to end the conversation.  But they're not bigots. They're not even idiots or halfwits.  They're just people being their emotional selves.


A decent post.

Still, I think the root of your idea that rejection of gay marriage is only emotional stems from an overall rejection of religion as irrational.

If one believes that there is a rational basis for religion than one can make a rational argument against gay marriage.*


*One should note, most people, regardless of belief system, do not fully work out their worldviews rationally.  It could be lack of time, lack of desire, lack of intelligence, but whatever it is, we all hold a lot of beliefs based on relatively sparse reasoning, whether we are secular or religious, etc.


  


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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #66 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:58pm
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Frank1 wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:19pm:
This is as weird as your idea that the Nazi's invented the term "white" as a race descriptor.

How do you know this stand against gay marriage has nothing to do with Native religion?

Is "gay marriage" a traditional Native American practice?


I said the term was "practically" invented by the Nazi's meaning, no one paid much attention to the concept of "whitey" until Hitler latched on to the idea and made a religion out of it.

I don't know anything about Native spirituality or even much about the culture, nor do I care really, doesn't effect me as I'm not native.  I'm guessing the magic "religion" part of there culture is just as hokey as any of the Abrahamic faiths.

Just pointing out they are misguided like the rest of the hokey religion people, regardless of why they chose to ban gay marriage. 
  

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EF
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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #67 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:00pm
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Frank1 wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:24pm:
A decent post.

Still, I think the root of your idea that rejection of gay marriage is only emotional stems from an overall rejection of religion as irrational.

If one believes that there is a rational basis for religion than one can make a rational argument against gay marriage.*


*One should note, most people, regardless of belief system, do not fully work out their worldviews rationally.  It could be lack of time, lack of desire, lack of intelligence, but whatever it is, we all hold a lot of beliefs based on relatively sparse reasoning, whether we are secular or religious, etc.




I do not believe religion is irrational, but the gays that I know are not seeking religious sanction of their unions.  They really could not care less about that.  What they want is the same secular, non-religious recognition of their unions that is granted to marriages of other non-religious folk - e.g., atheists, pagans (although they are technically religious), etc.

The arguments proffered against gay marriage generally fall into one of these categories:

1.  Marriage is for procreation, and same sex couples cannot procreate.  But that fails when one says it's okay for heteros who can't or won't have children to marry.

2.  It destroys the "sanctity" of marriage.  I would only say I cannot think of anything the gays can do to besmirch the "sanctity" of marriage that heteros haven't already done.

3.  God will not recognize gay marriage.  So what.  He probably doesn't recognize most hetero marriages, either.  Like those between atheists, pagans, Wiccans, and any  number of other assorted heathens.  Probably a lot of marriages between alleged Christians, too, because all who claim they are Christian are not.  The Book even says so.

4.  It leads to immorality.  See item 2.

There simply aren't any rational arguments against secular recognition of gay marriage.
  

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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #68 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:08pm
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:58pm:
I said the term was "practically" invented by the Nazi's meaning, no one paid much attention to the concept of "whitey" until Hitler latched on to the idea and made a religion out of it.


So what about that whole thing of raced based slavery throughout the 19th century and the widespread idea of the "white man's burden" as an excuse for colonialism?

Furthermore, the Nazi's were not so concerned about "whiteness" as with being German.  Hitler wanted to denude the Slavic countries of their people, either killing or enslaving them.  Obviously Slavs are white.

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I don't know anything about Native spirituality or even much about the culture, nor do I care really, doesn't effect me as I'm not native.  I'm guessing the magic "religion" part of there culture is just as hokey as any of the Abrahamic faiths.


Isn't it nice to dismiss things you know nothing about as "hokey."  I thought liberals were supposed to be more thoughtful than that.  Please read the work of Paul Feyerabend as a corrective, seriously.

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Just pointing out they are misguided like the rest of the hokey religion people, regardless of why they chose to ban gay marriage. 


You are simply displaying the attitude I mention so much here: lack of imagination.  You are displaying (and of course you are not alone) an inability to step out of your own viewpoint into that of another group.

It is not just that you disagree with the Indian decision, but that you admit not the slightest knowledge of their religious culture before you dismiss it: lack of imagination indeed.
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #69 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:23pm
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EF wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:00pm:
1.  Marriage is for procreation, and same sex couple
cannot procreate.  But that fails when one says it's okay for heteros who can't or won't have children to marry.


I agree that procreation is not the essence of marriage.  The essence is the re-uniting of the feminine and masculine poles of humanity.  I say re-uniting, as at one point there were no sexes, but rather both of these poles were contained in the same being. 

The division was/is simply part of the trend of creation towards an ever-widening array of subject-object relationships.  The whole keeps dividing into more parts.

But to transcend the created world, we need to return to the unity of essence that was in our Primordial ancestors.  Marriage performs this service.



Quote:
2.  It destroys the "sanctity" of marriage.  I would only say I cannot think of anything the gays can do to besmirch the "sanctity" of marriage that heteros haven't already done.


I agree that hetero's have done much to destroy the sanctity of marriage, but I do not see that this makes gay marriage any better of an idea.

Quote:
3.  God will not recognize gay marriage.  So what.  He probably doesn't recognize most hetero marriages, either.  Like those between atheists, pagans, Wiccans, and any  number of other assorted heathens.  Probably a lot of marriages between alleged Christians, too, because all who claim they are Christian are not.  The Book even says so.


See above.

Quote:
4.  It leads to immorality.  See item 2.


See above.


Of course you did say gays want secular recognition of marriage.  I would assert the rite of marriage should only be conducted through religious institutions.

But that is not the world we live in: so yes, in spite of all I said, from a purely secular viewpoint there seems little reason to dismiss gay marriage.
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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