Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage! (Read 3,995 times)
EF
LNF House Leader
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
****
Offline


Posts: 8,727
Joined: Jan 21st, 2012
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #70 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:35pm
Print Post  
Of course you did say gays want secular recognition of marriage. I would assert the rite of marriage should only be conducted through religious institutions.

I simply disagree. Not only do I disagree, it has never been such and never will be such this side of the topsoil. As you implied (or at least I inferred), we live in a fallen world.

But I am glad you see the point I am trying to make. If there are to be secular benefits to the union of two individuals, then there is no rational reason to deny such secular benefits to the union of two same sex persons.
  

non sumus stulti
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Capt. Lola B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Offline

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,485
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #71 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:45pm
Print Post  
Frank1 wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:08pm:
So what about that whole thing of raced based slavery throughout the 19th century and the widespread idea of the "white man's burden" as an excuse for colonialism?

Furthermore, the Nazi's were not so concerned about "whiteness" as with being German. Hitler wanted to denude the Slavic countries of their people, either killing or enslaving them. Obviously Slavs are white.


Isn't it nice to dismiss things you know nothing about as "hokey." I thought liberals were supposed to be more thoughtful than that. Please read the work of Paul Feyerabend as a corrective, seriously.


You are simply displaying the attitude I mention so much here: lack of imagination. You are displaying (and of course you are not alone) an inability to step out of your own viewpoint into that of another group.

It is not just that you disagree with the Indian decision, but that you admit not the slightest knowledge of their religious culture before you dismiss it: lack of imagination indeed.


Fair point about American slavery, well before Nazi Germany, the point I'm making is it was still a regional problem and only for those societies that placed importance on skin color, like we did in America.  We had to have someway of demonizing the natives to justify the horror of exterminating them and since they weren't  quite as fair skinned as the European immigrants coming over, it was an easy distinction.  The "red" man is raping our "white" womens, we were told.

I happily dismiss all magic, spirituality and religion.  I'm content with the arrangement of not wasting brain power, which I must conserve obviously, on really stupid stuff that doesn't exist.  Just the facts please.   Wink

  

"I'm a tranvestwhite and ask that you please use my preferred racial pronoun, "human."  -The Captain
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 16,292
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #72 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:11pm
Print Post  
EF wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:13pm:
I don't know that I would call people who are opposed to gay marriage bigots. To me, a bigot is someone who hates another person generally because of some personal trait about which that person can do nothing. Such as race, ethnicity, or religion. I do know a few people who, in addition to being opposed to gay marriage, hate homosexuals. But not many. Most of the people I know who are opposed to gay marriage do not hate homosexuals. And if you try to engage them in a conversation about their opposition to gay marriage, you quickly realize it's emotional, not rational. They are unable to present one argument that is even rational to them, and generally want to end the conversation. But they're not bigots. They're not even idiots or halfwits. They're just people being their emotional selves.


Fair point actually.

I modify my stance from "those opposed to gay marriage are bigots" to "those opposed to gay marriage are exhibiting behaviour that is necessary, but not sufficient, to defining them as bigoted".

Clumsy but more accurate.


Comrade.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 16,292
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #73 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:15pm
Print Post  
Frank1 wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 12:24pm:
A decent post.

Still, I think the root of your idea that rejection of gay marriage is only emotional stems from an overall rejection of religion as irrational.

If one believes that there is a rational basis for religion than one can make a rational argument against gay marriage.*


*One should note, most people, regardless of belief system, do not fully work out their worldviews rationally. It could be lack of time, lack of desire, lack of intelligence, but whatever it is, we all hold a lot of beliefs based on relatively sparse reasoning, whether we are secular or religious, etc.




Within the reference framework of vertain religions, opposition to gay marriage makes perfect sense.

You can of course say the same about stoning to death for adultery, refusal to eat a tasty pork chop, never shaving, or having your foreskin snipped off as a baby.

Some of these may have rational roots.

How about killing your son because your deity says so, or enslaving whole populations, or treating women as inferior?

I'd suggest that to those outside the relevant religions, these last are marks of barbarism or servility.



  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EF
LNF House Leader
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
****
Offline


Posts: 8,727
Joined: Jan 21st, 2012
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #74 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:15pm
Print Post  
Limey wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:11pm:
Fair point actually.

I modify my stance from "those opposed to gay marriage are bigots" to "those opposed to gay marriage are exhibiting behaviour that is necessary, but not sufficient, to defining them as bigoted".

Clumsy but more accurate.


Comrade.


*fist bump*

I would agree if this is implied: bigotry is irrational.  Being opposed to granting the secular rights of marriage to unions of same sex people is also irrational.  Being opposed to same sex marriage as a religious belief is not irrational, though.  However, attempting to impose one's religious beliefs on others through secular law is not only irrational, it's unconstitutional.  Even if your constitution is unwritten.
  

non sumus stulti
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EF
LNF House Leader
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
****
Offline


Posts: 8,727
Joined: Jan 21st, 2012
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #75 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:17pm
Print Post  
Limey wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:15pm:
Within the reference framework of vertain religions, opposition to gay marriage makes perfect sense.

You can of course say the same about stoning to death for adultery, refusal to eat a tasty pork chop, never shaving, or having your foreskin snipped off as a baby.




All I can say is, if one is going to have one's foreskin snipped off, having it done when a baby is preferable to having it done when an adult.  I think.  I had mine done as a baby so I can't really address it.
  

non sumus stulti
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 16,292
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #76 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:21pm
Print Post  
EF wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:17pm:
All I can say is, if one is going to have one's foreskin snipped off, having it done when a baby is preferable to having it done when an adult. I think. I had mine done as a baby so I can't really address it.



Same here.... No idea why, Dad wasn't Jewish and it's very uncommon in England.

Uncommon enough that this girl once, a few years ago.... No.

Wrong forum.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mercy For All
Hardhat
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

Generally, generalizations
are always false.

Posts: 43,785
Joined: Aug 7th, 2004
Gender: Male
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #77 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:22pm
Print Post  
EF wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 1:35pm:
Of course you did say gays want secular recognition of marriage. I would assert the rite of marriage should only be conducted through religious institutions.

I simply disagree. Not only do I disagree, it has never been such and never will be such this side of the topsoil. As you implied (or at least I inferred), we live in a fallen world.


I disagree. "Separation of church and state" is a relatively new idea. Marriages were all conducted through "religious institutions" prior to "separation of church and state."

Quote:
But I am glad you see the point I am trying to make. If there are to be secular benefits to the union of two individuals, then there is no rational reason to deny such secular benefits to the union of two same sex persons.


I agree.
  

Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EF
LNF House Leader
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
****
Offline


Posts: 8,727
Joined: Jan 21st, 2012
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #78 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:23pm
Print Post  
Limey wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:21pm:
Same here.... No idea why, Dad wasn't Jewish and it's very uncommon in England.

Uncommon enough that this girl once, a few years ago.... No.

Wrong forum.


Neither of my parents were Jewish, either. And I believe it's through the female that Jewishness is reckoned anyway. A gentile male fathering a child with a Jewish female produces a Jew. But not a Jewish father and a gentile female. But who cares.

I think it's common here. It was in the late 40's and early 50's anyway. And I think it still is. My son does, too.  And so will his son, someday.
  

non sumus stulti
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EF
LNF House Leader
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
****
Offline


Posts: 8,727
Joined: Jan 21st, 2012
Re: BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!
Reply #79 - Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:24pm
Print Post  
Mercy For All wrote on Apr 9th, 2015 at 2:22pm:
I disagree. "Separation of church and state" is a relatively new idea. Marriages were all conducted through "religious institutions" prior to "separation of church and state."


I agree.


I don't think a reading of  history will support that statement.
  

non sumus stulti
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › BIGOTS! Native Americans BAN same-sex marriage!

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules