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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Speciation in "Real Time" (Read 3,890 times)
Mercy For All
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Speciation in "Real Time"
Oct 31st, 2015 at 11:01am
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Okay, this is pretty cool--"sequential speciation."

Scientists Observe Wasps Evolving into New Species

...although they seem to be using a pretty loose definition of "speciation." Still, pretty cool.
  

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Frank1
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #1 - Oct 31st, 2015 at 11:47am
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Mercy For All wrote on Oct 31st, 2015 at 11:01am:
Okay, this is pretty cool--"sequential speciation."

Scientists Observe Wasps Evolving into New Species

...although they seem to be using a pretty loose definition of "speciation." Still, pretty cool.


New species or variations on the old species?

Did the fruit flies turn into wasps, or the wasps turn into fruit flies?

We can see variations on species all around us, no one denies this; but to go from variation to:

"an ape transformed into a man,"

is, well, a gigantic leap.
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Mercy For All
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2015 at 2:52pm
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Frank1 wrote on Oct 31st, 2015 at 11:47am:
New species or variations on the old species?

Did the fruit flies turn into wasps, or the wasps turn into fruit flies?

We can see variations on species all around us, no one denies this; but to go from variation to:

"an ape transformed into a man,"

is, well, a gigantic leap.


Yeah, that's what I meant by "pretty loose definition of speciation." However, this introduces a variation on mechanism. Seriously, if a wasp species can change this quickly, then real speciation is hard to dismiss. Consider change at this rate--how long before "apple wasps" and "hawthorn wasps" can no longer mate with one another and produce reproducing offspring? Again, at this rate of change, how long before a "wasp" is no longer a "wasp"?
  

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BowHunter
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #3 - Oct 31st, 2015 at 3:15pm
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Mercy For All wrote on Oct 31st, 2015 at 11:01am:
Okay, this is pretty cool--"sequential speciation."

Scientists Observe Wasps Evolving into New Species

...although they seem to be using a pretty loose definition of "speciation." Still, pretty cool.

There isn't much to go on.
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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BowHunter
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #4 - Oct 31st, 2015 at 3:23pm
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Mercy For All wrote on Oct 31st, 2015 at 2:52pm:
Yeah, that's what I meant by "pretty loose definition of speciation." However, this introduces a variation on mechanism. Seriously, if a wasp species can change this quickly, then real speciation is hard to dismiss. Consider change at this rate--how long before "apple wasps" and "hawthorn wasps" can no longer mate with one another and produce reproducing offspring? Again, at this rate of change, how long before a "wasp" is no longer a "wasp"?

I think the average rate of mutation is something relatively stable as they are able to evaluate how long the head louse and the pubic louse have been separated (which translates to how long since we 'as a species'  no longer have hair all over our bodies, so lice can no longer travel freely from one point to another) just by comparing their DNA. They say it's almost as reliable as a clock.
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Frank1
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #5 - Nov 1st, 2015 at 5:01pm
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Mercy For All wrote on Oct 31st, 2015 at 2:52pm:
Yeah, that's what I meant by "pretty loose definition of speciation." However, this introduces a variation on mechanism. Seriously, if a wasp species can change this quickly, then real speciation is hard to dismiss. Consider change at this rate--how long before "apple wasps" and "hawthorn wasps" can no longer mate with one another and produce reproducing offspring? Again, at this rate of change, how long before a "wasp" is no longer a "wasp"?


Look at dogs, they are probably one of the most diverse mammalian species on the planet.

Currently we have a 12 pound Jack Russel-Chihuahua mix...some people the block over have massive dogs (not sure the breed) whose heads are probably 4 feet off the ground.

Now, if you took our little mix and these giant dogs and put them on a desert island, they would never in the natural course of events breed with each other...but they would still both be canines.

Furthermore, variations on canines can, as with the variations of wasps, be developed rapidly.

But, no matter how many variations we have on canine and how rapidly we develop them we have not yet turned a canine into something that is not a canine, have we?

When a wasp turns into something that is not a wasp, great, get back to me.
« Last Edit: Nov 1st, 2015 at 5:11pm by Frank1 »  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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BowHunter
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #6 - Nov 2nd, 2015 at 2:27am
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Frank1 wrote on Nov 1st, 2015 at 5:01pm:
Look at dogs, they are probably one of the most diverse mammalian species on the planet.

Currently we have a 12 pound Jack Russel-Chihuahua mix...some people the block over have massive dogs (not sure the breed) whose heads are probably 4 feet off the ground.

Now, if you took our little mix and these giant dogs and put them on a desert island, they would never in the natural course of events breed with each other...but they would still both be canines.

Furthermore, variations on canines can, as with the variations of wasps, be developed rapidly.

But, no matter how many variations we have on canine and how rapidly we develop them we have not yet turned a canine into something that is not a canine, have we?

When a wasp turns into something that is not a wasp, great, get back to me.

Speciation in nature takes normally millions of years, (about eight million years for humanity), even accelerated we haven't been around long enough to make that kind of change. However paleontology and countless digs have yielded thousands of cases of species evolving to others. The analysis of DNAs proved that the rate of mutation is almost constant over long stretches of time. We can now give a reasonable evaluation of the time two different species shared a common ancestor just by counting the differences in their DNAs. You people are basically the flat-earthers of biology.
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Mercy For All
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #7 - Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:11am
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 2:27am:
Speciation in nature takes normally millions of years, (about eight million years for humanity), even accelerated we haven't been around long enough to make that kind of change. However paleontology and countless digs have yielded thousands of cases of species evolving to others. The analysis of DNAs proved that the rate of mutation is almost constant over long stretches of time. We can now give a reasonable evaluation of the time two different species shared a common ancestor just by counting the differences in their DNAs. You people are basically the flat-earthers of biology.


But...I can't see it!
  

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BowHunter
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #8 - Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:18am
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Mercy For All wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 9:11am:
But...I can't see it!

True. Wink
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Frank1
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Re: Speciation in "Real Time"
Reply #9 - Nov 2nd, 2015 at 11:20pm
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 2nd, 2015 at 2:27am:
Speciation in nature takes normally millions of years, (about eight million years for humanity), even accelerated we haven't been around long enough to make that kind of change. However paleontology and countless digs have yielded thousands of cases of species evolving to others. The analysis of DNAs proved that the rate of mutation is almost constant over long stretches of time. We can now give a reasonable evaluation of the time two different species shared a common ancestor just by counting the differences in their DNAs. You people are basically the flat-earthers of biology.


How in the world does similarity in DNA prove that one species transformed into another?

We have lots of other similarities between various organic organisms besides DNA.

Or a couch and a chair are both made of wood and fabric, so I guess one evolved into the other.

A form is a form is a form.

Man is a form, always been man, never been any other form.

Gorilla is a form, always been gorilla, never been any other form.

Same for wasps, canines, etc.


Of course a form can have many variations on it, and this is where the confusion arises.  People use the fact that we see variations on forms to argue that one form changes into another...but no, the forms are always distinct from each other, this is why man, with all his millennia of breeding plants and animals have never turned one species into a different species.
« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2015 at 11:37pm by Frank1 »  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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