Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Do We Worship the Same God?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do We Worship the Same God? (Read 7,536 times)
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,756
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #100 - Mar 2nd, 2016 at 1:14pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:34pm:
I could see you dismissing all of these accounts IF they were conflicting but that is the strengths of these accounts.  They support each other in both biblical and non-biblical.  I can't see that as pure chance.


Some of the accounts do conflict.  The genealogies in Matthew and Luke conflict with each other and with the Old Testament.  Moreover, and more seriously, the Christmas stories in Matthew and Luke date to different decades: Matthew places Jesus's birth before the death of Herod (4 BC), Luke places Jesus's birth during Quirinius's Syrian governorship (6-9 AD).  They can't both be right.  Both writers were trying to connect Jesus to Micah's Bethlehem prophecy even though Jesus was from Nazareth.

But many of the parallels among the Synoptic Gospels aren't coincidence: the Gospel of Mark was written first, and St. Matthew and St. Luke both relied on Mark to write their own Gospels.

As for non-biblical accounts of Jesus's life, there are none.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,756
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #101 - Mar 2nd, 2016 at 1:38pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:45pm:
In case you do not know, I am aware that some of the Gospels were written by those who were not the 12 disciples but by those who worked closely with them.  That was not uncommon and is also the case in many of the books in the Old Testament.


Correct.  But here's the problem: when information passes from person to person, the quality and accuracy of the information tends to decline.  The person who experiences the information - the witness - is usually the best person to tell the story.  When the witness tells someone else, and that someone else tells the story, details tend to be lost or misremembered, and new details tend to be added so that the story makes more sense.  This isn't a conscious decision to deceive; it's just how the human mind works.  In law, that someone else is almost never allowed to testify if the witness is still around, because the reliability of that "hearsay evidence" is too low.

Note that "low reliability" is not the same thing as "false"!  If I tell you my wedding date, and you tell someone else, your telling would be less reliable than my telling.  But that doesn't mean you'll give the wrong date, just that it would be more likely to be accurate if it came from me instead of you.

The Gospels are largely written on hearsay.  As you know, St. Mark and St. Luke were not witnesses.  Legend has it that St. Mark wrote the stories as told by St. Peter - who was an eyewitness to most events - but there is no way to confirm or deny that legend.  St. Matthew was an eyewitness to some events, but oddly enough, heavily relied on the Gospel of Mark to write his own Gospel.  And even more oddly, the Gospel of Matthew is less reliable than Mark, even though St. Matthew was an eyewitness to some events and St. Mark was not.

Also, criminology and psychology have begun to chip away at the reliability of eyewitnesses.  It turns out that when we remember a situation, we don't remember the situation as we experienced it; instead, we remember our most recent memory of the situation.  Over time, the quality of that memory degrades.  Moreover, eyewitnesses can miss tremendously useful or important details, depending on attention span, point of focus, quality of memory retention, etc.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #102 - Mar 2nd, 2016 at 4:02pm
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Mar 2nd, 2016 at 1:14pm:
Some of the accounts do conflict.  The genealogies in Matthew and Luke conflict with each other and with the Old Testament.  Moreover, and more seriously, the Christmas stories in Matthew and Luke date to different decades: Matthew places Jesus's birth before the death of Herod (4 BC), Luke places Jesus's birth during Quirinius's Syrian governorship (6-9 AD).  They can't both be right.  Both writers were trying to connect Jesus to Micah's Bethlehem prophecy even though Jesus was from Nazareth.

But many of the parallels among the Synoptic Gospels aren't coincidence: the Gospel of Mark was written first, and St. Matthew and St. Luke both relied on Mark to write their own Gospels.

As for non-biblical accounts of Jesus's life, there are none.

How, because all of the accounts state he was persecuted, hung on a cross, died was resurrected and ascended into heaven.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #103 - Mar 2nd, 2016 at 4:04pm
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Mar 2nd, 2016 at 1:14pm:
Some of the accounts do conflict.  The genealogies in Matthew and Luke conflict with each other and with the Old Testament.  Moreover, and more seriously, the Christmas stories in Matthew and Luke date to different decades: Matthew places Jesus's birth before the death of Herod (4 BC), Luke places Jesus's birth during Quirinius's Syrian governorship (6-9 AD).  They can't both be right.  Both writers were trying to connect Jesus to Micah's Bethlehem prophecy even though Jesus was from Nazareth.

But many of the parallels among the Synoptic Gospels aren't coincidence: the Gospel of Mark was written first, and St. Matthew and St. Luke both relied on Mark to write their own Gospels.

As for non-biblical accounts of Jesus's life, there are none.


In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account: 
 

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.  For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had  first come to love him did not cease.  He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.  And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
                                - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63


  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #104 - Mar 2nd, 2016 at 4:31pm
Print Post  
Luke is not contradicting Matthew; they both agree that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great. In fact, considering that they tell very different stories, presumably drawing from very different sources (Matthew’s account focusses on the men, Luke’s on the women), the number of points of factual agreement are quite remarkable.


Jesus was born in Bethlehem            Matt 2:1                   Luke 2:2

In time of Herod (d. 4 BC)                Matt 2:1                  Luke 1:5

Mother: Mary                                  Matt 1:18                Luke 1:26

Father: Joseph (named the child)      Matt 1:18                 Luke 1:26

But not the biological father             Matt 1:16, 20, 22    Luke 1:34; 3:23

Brought up in Nazareth in Galilee     Matt 2:22-23           Luke 2:39

From the line of David                     Matt 1:1                 Luke 1:32

Secondly, as Marshall p 102 points out, women were quite often involved in taking of the census. He also comments that ‘it must be presumed that Joseph had some property in Bethlehem.’ In fact, Stephen Carlson has argued that Bethlehem was Joseph’s family home, not simply his ancestral home, and that he had come to Nazareth to be betrothed to Mary, and was bringing her back to the (initial) marital home in Bethlehem. Interestingly, this idea concurs exactly with Matthew’s account, which only mentions Bethlehem, and makes no mention of the journey to and from Nazareth.

Thirdly, it is perfectly possible that Herod ordered a local census to be taken, or that the Romans decided to intervene directly into matters of taxation. It has been argued that if this were the case, Josephus would surely have mentioned it, but this is an argument from silence. We simply do not have a complete historical record for the period.



But the significant problem remaining is that of the date of the census and the apparent impossibility of reconciling Herod’s reign and the period that Quirinius was governor of Syria. Josephus tells us (in Antiquities 17.355 & 18.1–2) that Quirinius took a census of Syria and Judea in 6/7 AD, in part as a way of consolidating Roman rule over Judea after Herod the Great’s son Archelaus was deposed and exiled. (Josephus argues that this led to the formation of the Zealot party, and was the incipient cause of the Jewish War 60 years later; taxation is a way of confirming the subjugation of a nation to its imperial rulers, hence the power of the question in Matt 22.17.) Luke appears to refer to this as ‘the’ census in Acts 5.37.

There are two main traditional arguments deployed in defence of Luke’s accuracy.

a. There are three inscriptions which are often cited as suggesting that Quirinius was governor of Syria for two distinct periods: the Lapis Tiburtinus; the Lapis Venetus; and the Antioch Stones. You can read a transcript of all three here. William Ramsay was the first to put this interpretation on them in 1912, and you will find them cited often on apologetics websites. But I agree with the sceptical commentator who has collated them: they don’t really demonstrate any such thing. We know who the governors of Syria were at the time, and there is no known mechanism under Roman government by which Quirinius could really be described in these terms at the right time...

You can read more here
http://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/did-luke-get-the-date-of-jesus-birth-wr...
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #105 - Mar 2nd, 2016 at 9:14pm
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Mar 2nd, 2016 at 1:38pm:
Correct.  But here's the problem: when information passes from person to person, the quality and accuracy of the information tends to decline.  The person who experiences the information - the witness - is usually the best person to tell the story.  When the witness tells someone else, and that someone else tells the story, details tend to be lost or misremembered, and new details tend to be added so that the story makes more sense.  This isn't a conscious decision to deceive; it's just how the human mind works.  In law, that someone else is almost never allowed to testify if the witness is still around, because the reliability of that "hearsay evidence" is too low.

Note that "low reliability" is not the same thing as "false"!  If I tell you my wedding date, and you tell someone else, your telling would be less reliable than my telling.  But that doesn't mean you'll give the wrong date, just that it would be more likely to be accurate if it came from me instead of you.

The Gospels are largely written on hearsay.  As you know, St. Mark and St. Luke were not witnesses.  Legend has it that St. Mark wrote the stories as told by St. Peter - who was an eyewitness to most events - but there is no way to confirm or deny that legend.  St. Matthew was an eyewitness to some events, but oddly enough, heavily relied on the Gospel of Mark to write his own Gospel.  And even more oddly, the Gospel of Matthew is less reliable than Mark, even though St. Matthew was an eyewitness to some events and St. Mark was not.

Also, criminology and psychology have begun to chip away at the reliability of eyewitnesses.  It turns out that when we remember a situation, we don't remember the situation as we experienced it; instead, we remember our most recent memory of the situation.  Over time, the quality of that memory degrades.  Moreover, eyewitnesses can miss tremendously useful or important details, depending on attention span, point of focus, quality of memory retention, etc.

I challenge you to read the book of Isaiah from the Dead Sea scrolls.  It matches almost word for word and is the oldest, 125 BCE.  That proves this theory false.  You can go and view the book of Isaiah digitally and witness for yourself the word for word translation of the oldest manuscript ever discovered.

http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#3:17
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,756
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #106 - Mar 7th, 2016 at 5:30pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Mar 2nd, 2016 at 4:04pm:
In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account: 
 
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.  For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had  first come to love him did not cease.  He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.  And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
                                - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63


This passage is almost certainly not in the original.  It was added later.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,756
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #107 - Mar 7th, 2016 at 5:50pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Mar 2nd, 2016 at 4:31pm:
Luke is not contradicting Matthew; they both agree that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great.


Actually no.  Luke 1 says that Zechariah saw the prophetic vision that Elizabeth would become pregnant.  However, that didn't happen immediately, because Zechariah had to finish his service at the Temple before returning home.  Luke 1:23.  It was only once he returned home (after some indeterminate length of time) that Elizabeth became pregnant.  Mary visited Elizabeth while she was pregnant, and Elizabeth prophecized that Mary would become pregnant, but Luke doesn't say how much time passes between the prophecy and Mary's pregnancy.  Luke implies that some considerable time passed between the prophecy and pregnancy, by describing John the Baptist's growth.  Luke 1:80.

Quote:
Thirdly, it is perfectly possible that Herod ordered a local census to be taken, or that the Romans decided to intervene directly into matters of taxation.  It has been argued that if this were the case, Josephus would surely have mentioned it, but this is an argument from silence.


It is, but Josephus wrote a tremendous amount about Herod and deeply hated the man.  If Herod had tried to impose a census - which violates the Torah - Judea would have erupted.

Paul (the author of this article, not St. Paul) goes on to argue that Luke's gospel is generally reliable and we don't know for sure that Josephus was 100% correct and fully impartial.  That's not much of an argument.  Once you realize that St. Luke doesn't necessarily place Jesus's birth during the reign of Herod, the contradiction between Matthew and Luke re-appears.

(Of the two, Luke is more reliable, though the census didn't require that people return to their homelands to register: that would have been a logistical nightmare.)
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,756
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #108 - Mar 7th, 2016 at 5:59pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Mar 2nd, 2016 at 9:14pm:
I challenge you to read the book of Isaiah from the Dead Sea scrolls.  It matches almost word for word and is the oldest, 125 BCE.  That proves this theory false.


No it doesn't, because the situations are different.  One situation is re-copying a written text, the other is retelling an oral story.  Copying a written text is very differnt from retelling an oral story.  For example, we are very highly confident that we have the text of the Declaration of Independence.  It was written down, and that writing was copied faithfully.  However, if the Declaration of Independence had been a speech, and no one had taken notes, we would not have a very reliable text.

Here, the Dead Sea Scrolls were already written down and being copied faithfully.  That's a different situation than who wrote the original books that make up the Scrolls and how reliable those original writings were.  It's the same for the Gospels: we have pretty reliable copies of the final text of the Gospels, but the important question is "How reliable were the Gospel writers?" not "How reliable are these copies?"
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #109 - Mar 7th, 2016 at 7:56pm
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Mar 7th, 2016 at 5:59pm:
No it doesn't, because the situations are different.  One situation is re-copying a written text, the other is retelling an oral story.  Copying a written text is very differnt from retelling an oral story.  For example, we are very highly confident that we have the text of the Declaration of Independence.  It was written down, and that writing was copied faithfully.  However, if the Declaration of Independence had been a speech, and no one had taken notes, we would not have a very reliable text.

Here, the Dead Sea Scrolls were already written down and being copied faithfully.  That's a different situation than who wrote the original books that make up the Scrolls and how reliable those original writings were.  It's the same for the Gospels: we have pretty reliable copies of the final text of the Gospels, but the important question is "How reliable were the Gospel writers?" not "How reliable are these copies?"
in you mind you are adamant and I can see no further reason continuing on.  The end has the answers
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Do We Worship the Same God?

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules