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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do We Worship the Same God? (Read 5,888 times)
Running Deer
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #90 - Mar 1st, 2016 at 2:22pm
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DV wrote on Feb 29th, 2016 at 9:34pm:
Really? Is that the best evidence that you can marshal in support of the proposition that the creator of the universe impregnated a young girl with his ghost, morphed into his own son, suffered and died "for the sins of all of mankind," rose from the dead, floated into the sky on a cloud, and has a "personal relationship" with millions of present-day people who are willing to make such a claim with a straight face?


He's making a good faith effort to present evidence that there were supernatural events on the day of Jesus's crucifixion.  The evidence isn't very good, but you haven't examined it, thought about it, and made a good faith effort to respond.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Seawolf
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #91 - Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:10pm
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 1st, 2016 at 1:57pm:
Africanus's works have also been lost.  What we have from Africanus is quotes by other authors.  In this case, the other author is George Syncellus, a monk who lived in the 800s.  So we have Brother Syncellus quoting Julius Africanus who, in turn, referenced (but did not quote) Thallus.  This is already very thin ice, but here's Brother Syncellus quoting Africanus:

This event followed each of his (Jesus's) deeds, and healings of body and soul, and knowledge of hidden things, and his resurrection from the dead, all sufficiently proven to the disciples before us and to his apostles: after the most dreadful darkness fell over the whole world, the rocks were torn apart by an earthquake and much of Judaea and the rest of the land was torn down. Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse of the sun in the third book of his Histories, without reason it seems to me.  For....how are we to believe that an eclipse happened when the moon was diametrically opposite the sun?

That's all we have about Thallus's reference.  Nothing tells us when Thallus wrote, nor whether he had seen the eclipse himself or was responding to a Christian legend.  We don't even have a quote (however badly doctored) from Thallus himself.

A reproduction of a quote making a reference to someone of whom we know nothing and who may not have had any first-hand knowledge is very, very weak evidence.  You wouldn't accept that sort of evidence for miracles by, say, the Buddha or Krishna, and rightfully so.


The fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad would have been 32 AD, not 33 AD.

Bithynia was on the northwest coast of Asia Minor (modern Turkey), slightly ESE of modern Istanbul.  It was hundreds of miles from Jerusalem.  The Middle East is a geologic hotspot - Africa is slowly crashing into Europe - and earthquakes and volcanic activity aren't rare.  There's no particular reason to connect the Bithynian earthquake to something 500 miles away in Jerusalem, and note that Phlegon says nothing about Jesus or Jerusalem.

Note also that Phlegon wrote more than a century after the death of Jesus, so his earthquake/eclipse knowledge was second-hand, at best.

Again, we have a lover of miracles writing about something that happened a hundred years before he wrote, and Christians leap on it to connect it to an event hundreds of miles from the reference.  More weak evidence.

We also have eyewitness accounts in the Bible and when you look at both Biblical and non-biblical accounts, they both align.  I don't think you can dismiss that.
« Last Edit: Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:18pm by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Seawolf
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #92 - Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:17pm
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 1st, 2016 at 2:22pm:
He's making a good faith effort to present evidence that there were supernatural events on the day of Jesus's crucifixion.  The evidence isn't very good, but you haven't examined it, thought about it, and made a good faith effort to respond.

Thanks but DV spends a lot of time trolling so I am not going to waste too much time attempting to have a discussion with him.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #93 - Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:26pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:10pm:
We also have eyewitness accounts in the Bible


St. Mark and St. Luke converted after Jesus's death.  They weren't witnesses, although church legend says that St. Mark wrote down the memories of St. Peter.  (There's no way to confirm or deny that.)  St. John would have been a witness, however, he didn't write the Gospel of John, and we don't know who did.

That leaves St. Matthew as the lone possible eyewitness of the Four Evangelists.  That would be good, except that St. Matthew clearly relied on the Gospel of Mark to write his Gospel.  Why exactly would an eyewitness need to crib his observations from someone who wasn't there?  It doesn't make much sense, and it lowers the reliability and independence of St. Matthew's observations.

Unfortunately, the Apostles didn't leave additional Gospels.  Several non-canonical Gospels exist and are attributed to the Apostles (Thomas, Peter, etc.), but they were almost certainly written by someone else. 

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and when you look at both Biblical and non-bibllical accounts, they both align.  I don't think you can dismiss that.


There are no surviving non-biblical accounts.  As I said in my post, we don't actually know what Thallus wrote, when he wrote it, or whether or not he experienced it himself or relied on someone else's story.  Phlegon is writing about an earthquake in a previous century and mentions nothing about Jesus, Jerusalem, Israel, or anything else.  So far, no alignment.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #94 - Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:34pm
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:26pm:
St. Mark and St. Luke converted after Jesus's death.  They weren't witnesses, although church legend says that St. Mark wrote down the memories of St. Peter.  (There's no way to confirm or deny that.)  St. John would have been a witness, however, he didn't write the Gospel of John, and we don't know who did.

That leaves St. Matthew as the lone possible eyewitness of the Four Evangelists.  That would be good, except that St. Matthew clearly relied on the Gospel of Mark to write his Gospel.  Why exactly would an eyewitness need to crib his observations from someone who wasn't there?  It doesn't make much sense, and it lowers the reliability and independence of St. Matthew's observations.

Unfortunately, the Apostles didn't leave additional Gospels.  Several non-canonical Gospels exist and are attributed to the Apostles (Thomas, Peter, etc.), but they were almost certainly written by someone else. 


There are no surviving non-biblical accounts.  As I said in my post, we don't actually know what Thallus wrote, when he wrote it, or whether or not he experienced it himself or relied on someone else's story.  Phlegon is writing about an earthquake in a previous century and mentions nothing about Jesus, Jerusalem, Israel, or anything else.  So far, no alignment.

I could see you dismissing all of these accounts IF they were conflicting but that is the strengths of these accounts.  They support each other in both biblical and non-biblical.  I can't see that as pure chance.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #95 - Mar 1st, 2016 at 4:45pm
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In case you do not know, I am aware that some of the Gospels were written by those who were not the 12 disciples but by those who worked closely with them.  That was not uncommon and is also the case in many of the books in the Old Testament.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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MikeGlosterIII
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #96 - Mar 1st, 2016 at 5:19pm
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"St. John would have been a witness, however, he didn't write the Gospel of John, and we don't know who did.


I do not want to get in the middle of you guy's discusion. But I thought I would post some on this quote. Here are some sites about the topic. Brown's book is one of my favorites, although written by a liberal. Reading his works with due caution, one can learn so very much. In the list, I have also posted about a book off topic, but one I loved.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/did-john-write-his-gospel

http://www.amazon.com/The-Community-Beloved-Disciple-Individual/dp/0809121743

http://www.amazon.com/Antioch-Rome-Testament-Catholic-Christianity/dp/0809125323...


http://www.bibleinterp.com/PDFs/Anderson.pdf
  

Let a man meet a she-bear robbed of her cubs rather than a fool in his folly. Proverbs 17:12 (ESV)
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #97 - Mar 1st, 2016 at 7:07pm
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MikeGlosterIII wrote on Mar 1st, 2016 at 5:19pm:
"St. John would have been a witness, however, he didn't write the Gospel of John, and we don't know who did.


I do not want to get in the middle of you guy's discusion. But I thought I would post some on this quote. Here are some sites about the topic. Brown's book is one of my favorites, although written by a liberal. Reading his works with due caution, one can learn so very much. In the list, I have also posted about a book off topic, but one I loved.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/did-john-write-his-gospel

http://www.amazon.com/The-Community-Beloved-Disciple-Individual/dp/0809121743

http://www.amazon.com/Antioch-Rome-Testament-Catholic-Christianity/dp/0809125323...


http://www.bibleinterp.com/PDFs/Anderson.pdf

I have no issue with you contributing to the discussion. 
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #98 - Mar 2nd, 2016 at 6:05am
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Much of our history is based on eyewitness accounts.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Do We Worship the Same God?
Reply #99 - Mar 2nd, 2016 at 9:10am
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 2nd, 2016 at 6:05am:
Much of our history is based on eyewitness accounts.

You have a marvelous grasp of the obvious...
  

Non sequitur:

The Rubenstein Twins wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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