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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereEconomics, Financial News › Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is the minimum wage Constitutional? (Read 10,703 times)
Elmer Fudd
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #10 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:35am
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Fiddler wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:30am:
What you claim to be a "progressive" movement was in reality a conservative effort to stem newly emerging demographic trends.. plus your post would be considerably more accurate if you replaced the term "progressives" with the term economists.   

Their further failure is the notion that a minimum wage necessarily prevents an individual from negotiating for a better wage. To introduce reality into this bizarre spin, this claim only makes sense if one can convince Americans of the ineffectiveness of trade unions which conservatives have indeed done.. .. 

All in all this once again shows the inability of economics to make accurate predictions in almost any situation..



A wise man once said if you took all the economists in the world and placed them end to end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion.


And don't forget it was Harry Truman (I think) who said he wanted a one armed economist because he was sick of hearing "on the other hand" every time they gave him advice.


The minimum wage is clearly constitutional.  What might not be so clear is whether it's good or bad for the economy.  All I know is, if we had lost as many jobs as was predicted every time it's been raised, unemployment would be close to 80%.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #11 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:39am
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Elmer Fudd wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:35am:
A wise man once said if you took all the economists in the world and placed them end to end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion.


And don't forget it was Harry Truman (I think) who said he wanted a one armed economist because he was sick of hearing "on the other hand" every time they gave him advice.





  
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #12 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:51am
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Fiddler wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:39am:



Now I will be the first to admit I am not a product of Ivy League schools, but I am also not a product of diploma mills.  One of the schools I attended gave me the dubious honor of awarding me the "Economics and Accounting" award one year.  I say dubious because, as the joke goes, "an economist is a fellow who didn't have enough charisma to be an accountant."

And another school I attended for graduate studies had a perfesser with whom I got along famously who had a Ph.D. in economics.  I took two courses under him but decided not to pursue the study because, as I explained to him, "the more I study this stuff the less I know about it, and I am afraid if I take one more course I won't know anything at all."  He said he completely understood and wished me well.
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #13 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:57am
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Fiddler wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:30am:
What you claim to be a "progressive" movement was in reality a conservative effort to stem newly emerging demographic trends.. plus your post would be considerably more accurate if you replaced the term "progressives" with the term economists.   


Well I would agree. The progressive movement was very conservative.

That is the take away from Kolko's book on the progressive era, entitled "The Triumph of Conservatism," not to mention more modern scholarship on the subject.

Yes, I am focusing on the words and thoughts of the progressive economists, but there were other economists who were not progressive/ conservative. The liberal economists opposed these measures.

So calling them "economists" in general would be to paint with too wide a brush.

Quote:
Their further failure is the notion that a minimum wage necessarily prevents an individual from negotiating for a better wage.


???

Do you really think there are any too stupid not to know that?

There are jobs in the labor market north of the minimum wage. The economists have one.

lol

This insight is banal in the extreme.

Quote:
To introduce reality into this bizarre spin, this claim only makes sense if one can convince Americans of the ineffectiveness of trade unions which conservatives have indeed done.. .. 


Which claim would that be?

And what "reality" do you see yourself introducing?

Quote:
All in all this once again shows the inability of economics to make accurate predictions in almost any situation..



Nonsense on stilts. In terms of qualitative prediction the economists generally do quite well.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #14 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:59am
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Elmer Fudd wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:35am:
A wise man once said if you took all the economists in the world and placed them end to end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion.


And don't forget it was Harry Truman (I think) who said he wanted a one armed economist because he was sick of hearing "on the other hand" every time they gave him advice.


The minimum wage is clearly constitutional.  What might not be so clear is whether it's good or bad for the economy.  All I know is, if we had lost as many jobs as was predicted every time it's been raised, unemployment would be close to 80%.

Ah but unemployment is not the big trauma associated with the minimum wage. That's why unemployment stats do not tick up much.

While the over all unemployment rate stays the same, or roughly the same, (it may go up or down) the composition of the labor force is impacted by minimum wage laws.

Those with the least skills find themselves unemployable. Often these are young men of some minority group.

  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #15 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 11:01am
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You don't need to be able to predict the future, with quantifiable precision, to know that the laws of supply and demand indeed apply.

It's one thing to have different opinions about how people will react to a given price change, or a new offering.

Or how they will spend or save next year.

But it's far and away something different to disagree with the laws of supply and demand.

That's approaching flat earth status. We're denying science.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #16 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 11:31am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 11:01am:
You don't need to be able to predict the future, with quantifiable precision, to know that the laws of supply and demand indeed apply.

It's one thing to have different opinions about how people will react to a given price change, or a new offering.

Or how they will spend or save next year.

But it's far and away something different to disagree with the laws of supply and demand.

That's approaching flat earth status. We're denying science.


The law of supply and demand is not a law in the same sense
that Newton's First Law of Motions is a law. Indeed, that is why
those who would call it a law call it a law, i.e., to lend it more
credibility than it is due. I would argue that the same is true about
much of what we call the science of economics. It is useful to a point,
but it is less science than is physics, though more than is astrology.
The other problem is that to the extent that it is useful, it is most
often/too often a tool of those who would exploit and deprive.
That is the case with the argument against the minimum wage.
Before wages were regulated, we had the rich and the poor, with
very few people in between. Once we instituted a minimum wage,
along with other labor protections, we developed a thriving middle
class composed largely of people who actually worked for a living.
Now those people are being threatened, defrauded and exploited
by those who would take all they have gained by their hard work,
including their right to claim and earn a minimum wage for their labors.

  

There are going to be some changes around here.
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #17 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 11:54am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 10:59am:
Ah but unemployment is not the big trauma associated with the minimum wage. That's why unemployment stats do not tick up much.

While the over all unemployment rate stays the same, or roughly the same, (it may go up or down) the composition of the labor force is impacted by minimum wage laws.

Those with the least skills find themselves unemployable. Often these are young men of some minority group.



Ah but this has always been true and probably always will be regardless of minimum wage increases.

There is an old saying "Rising water lifts all boats."  There is also an example of Henry Ford, who reasoned paying his workers $5 a day rather than the standard $3 a day would be good for him, good for them, and good for the economy.  And I think the record shows he was right.   Now, 'tis true he did that voluntarily and not as a result of government mandate, but the impact of an action is hardly contingent upon its motive. 

  

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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #18 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 12:11pm
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President b@m@ FvcktrvmP be@u wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 11:31am:
The law of supply and demand is not a law in the same sense
that Newton's First Law of Motions is a law. Indeed, that is why
those who would call it a law call it a law, i.e., to lend it more
credibility than it is due. I would argue that the same is true about
much of what we call the science of economics. It is useful to a point,
but it is less science than is physics, though more than is astrology.



I largely agree.

It's not a quantitative law like that found in the hard sciences. It is a qualitative law, though, and that's still a law.

By law I mean only to refer that the forces which we know as supply and demand will be in effect as manifested through actual human actions.

It's not mysterious.

It's not automatic.

There are lags and indeterminacy, no doubt. But ultimately they are indispensable tools for understanding social processes.


I would take issue with your claim about astrology, though.

That's a real science. The zodiac is real. The precession of the equinoxes is real.

It's a fact that the sun dies and is then reborn every year and so on and so forth.

I agree that this business of horoscopes is wack but astrology writ large is an ancient and timeless science.

And one built on observation rather than a priori theory.

Quote:
The other problem is that to the extent that it is useful, it is most
often/too often a tool of those who would exploit and deprive.
That is the case with the argument against the minimum wage.
Before wages were regulated, we had the rich and the poor, with
very few people in between. Once we instituted a minimum wage,
along with other labor protections, we developed a thriving middle
class composed largely of people who actually worked for a living.
Now those people are being threatened, defrauded and exploited
by those who would take all they have gained by their hard work,
including their right to claim and earn a minimum wage for their labors.



Well this is where we will part ways.

I agree that often these arguments are used to exploit and deprive. The issue is I see the minimum wage as being a tool designed for that very purpose. And it's not just my belief. The authors of the policy make their goals clear. It was all about starving minorities out by making them unattractive to hire.

It seems to me you are ignoring this form of exploitation.

Further I would take issue with the idea that policies like the minimum wage were what led to a thriving middle class. I disagree with that wholesale.

We were seeing the fruits of economic growth in the 19th century. It picked up steam in the 20th- derailed for a decade or so by the Great Depression.

The only way to increase real wages (ie the purchasing power of the wage unit) is to have legit economic growth. That leads to higher nominal and real wages.

It cannot be legislated into existence.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: Is the minimum wage Constitutional?
Reply #19 - Mar 29th, 2016 at 12:13pm
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Elmer Fudd wrote on Mar 29th, 2016 at 11:54am:
Ah but this has always been true and probably always will be regardless of minimum wage increases.


Sure but without minimum wage laws the least skilled have a chance. They can bargain.

With the minimum wage they are going to be turned away and someone with higher skills will be hired instead.

Quote:
There is an old saying "Rising water lifts all boats."  There is also an example of Henry Ford, who reasoned paying his workers $5 a day rather than the standard $3 a day would be good for him, good for them, and good for the economy.  And I think the record shows he was right.   Now, 'tis true he did that voluntarily and not as a result of government mandate, but the impact of an action is hardly contingent upon its motive. 


Yes, economists call those efficiency wages.

And yes, the impact is conditioned by whether it is voluntary or not.

For paying a worker more to get them to be more productive is one thing...

Deciding between two workers (one with more skills than the other) when the minimum wage is a legal requirement, is another.

You can't pay more than a certain number for labor without losing money. There is a cut off in what firms can afford to pay.

And that number is conditioned by the selling prices of the output, which is based on the utility consumers get from the good or service.
« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2016 at 12:20pm by TowardLiberty »  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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