Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Coming here soon !
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Coming here soon ! (Read 5,931 times)
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #10 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 7:11am
Print Post  
Limey wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 6:12am:
Where there is an increase in education and wealth, there tends to be a decrease in religious behaviour. That is broadly what has happened to the Church in England over, what, the last 100 years or so.

Probably the children of religious immigrant parents will continue this trend. You can be born in to a Christian family, or a Muslim one, that doesn't necessarily make you that religion.

Also, birth rates tend to decline as economic status rises. So, here, yes, first and second generation Bangladeshi and Pakistani immigrants tend to have larger families. The third generation, the ones I see in the pub, are all bloody lawyers and accountants and not only less religious but less fecund.



What are you talking about?

Every single argument - every one - in support of faith is simply rearranging the same argument which is 'I believe it'.

No science, no archæology, no paleontology, no genetics has made an argument for the existence of a God as yet.

The starting point for belief is belief, not proof. All the remarkable writers who have argued for God have produced nothing - nothing at all - except variations on the theme 'I believe'. 



That statement is in fact false.  I can point to a whole host of historic finds that have and are, to this day, validating scripture.  Take for instance King David, many scholars doubted there ever was a King David and yet very recent finds have now put that argument to rest.  http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/artifacts-and-the-bi... The argument was made that there was no Jericho up until very recently when it was discovered the town exist and the walls were destroyed.  Josephus on the Essenes was a historian who wrote about Jesus from his time.  http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/top-ten-biblical-discoveries-in-ar...

  The Dead Sea scrolls with one of the oldest transcripts of the Bible, Isaiah, destroyed the myth that the Bible had to be watered down over time as it was passed on.  Dating from ca. 125 BCE, it is also one of the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some one thousand years older than the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery.  http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah

What you prove is that intellectually, you have built yourself a wall of denial despite the facts.   
Romans 3:11 ►

Parallel Verses

New International Version
there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

No man seeks God, it is natural for us to deny him and to run from him.
Yet if we are honest, your conscious is your greatest witness of God in that you inherently know right from wrong.  We are the ONLY species that has established a court system with laws and consequences showing that laws hae consequences if violated.  That comes from God himself, it exist no where in the animal kingdom.  Just some examples and thoughts to ponder.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2016 at 7:26am by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MikeGlosterIII
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 4,081
Location: Northern Indiana
Joined: Apr 22nd, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #11 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 10:57am
Print Post  
"Every single argument - every one - in support of faith is simply rearranging the same argument which is 'I believe it'.

No science, no archæology, no paleontology, no genetics has made an argument for the existence of a God as yet.

The starting point for belief is belief, not proof. All the remarkable writers who have argued for God have produced nothing - nothing at all - except variations on the theme 'I believe'. 
"

True enough as far as it goes. But atheism and faith are just two sides of the same coin. Having been an atheist for nearly twenty-five years, a pilgrim of sort ( I used to call it  an agnostic theist ) for thirteen years and next month a Christian for twenty four years I have been on both sides. And, there is the belief held by Mormons, that one feels a burning in the breast as proof of their truth.

All this said, here are some articles that one, if so inclined , could peruse and meditate upon them.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/no_atheists.html

http://www.proginosko.com/2011/12/antitheism-presupposes-theism-and-so-does-ever...

http://www.proginosko.com/2011/12/antitheism-presupposes-theism-and-so-does-ever...

http://www.christianciv.com/Atheists_Confess.htm


BTW, though not a proper topic here, still, I hope you keep to your stated view and vote to stay in The EU
  

Let a man meet a she-bear robbed of her cubs rather than a fool in his folly. Proverbs 17:12 (ESV)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BowHunter
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online


Posts: 15,348
Location: America
Joined: Dec 5th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #12 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 1:15pm
Print Post  
Limey wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 6:12am:
Where there is an increase in education and wealth, there tends to be a decrease in religious behaviour. That is broadly what has happened to the Church in England over, what, the last 100 years or so.

Probably the children of religious immigrant parents will continue this trend. You can be born in to a Christian family, or a Muslim one, that doesn't necessarily make you that religion.

Also, birth rates tend to decline as economic status rises. So, here, yes, first and second generation Bangladeshi and Pakistani immigrants tend to have larger families. The third generation, the ones I see in the pub, are all bloody lawyers and accountants and not only less religious but less fecund.



What are you talking about?

Every single argument - every one - in support of faith is simply rearranging the same argument which is 'I believe it'.

No science, no archæology, no paleontology, no genetics has made an argument for the existence of a God as yet.

The starting point for belief is belief, not proof. All the remarkable writers who have argued for God have produced nothing - nothing at all - except variations on the theme 'I believe'. 



Pascal had an interesting spin on the theme of "I believe", one that seawolf likes so much that he paraphrases it, all the time.

Why is it so hard to behave as an adult with you?  Honestly, you want to advocate your view as superior and then act like a child which does you a great disservice.  Let's try and be cordial and save your antics for the political forum
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2016 at 5:33pm by Seawolf »  

Non sequitur:

Donkey Hoe Tay wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 14,690
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #13 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 1:24pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 7:11am:
That statement is in fact false.  I can point to a whole host of historic finds that have and are, to this day, validating scripture.



I wouldn't dream of suggesting that the Bible is fiction.

Obviously,  it's not going to be 100% reliable on things like timescales,  numbers killed in battle,  etc but of course there really was a King David, a Ruth, a Jericho.

Proving they existed,  by means of archæology, is not the same as proving there's a God.


You do see the difference,  don't you?

  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 14,690
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #14 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 1:25pm
Print Post  
MikeGlosterIII wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 10:57am:
"Every single argument - every one - in support of faith is simply rearranging the same argument which is 'I believe it'.

No science, no archæology, no paleontology, no genetics has made an argument for the existence of a God as yet.

The starting point for belief is belief, not proof. All the remarkable writers who have argued for God have produced nothing - nothing at all - except variations on the theme 'I believe'. 
"

True enough as far as it goes. But atheism and faith are just two sides of the same coin. Having been an atheist for nearly twenty-five years, a pilgrim of sort ( I used to call it  an agnostic theist ) for thirteen years and next month a Christian for twenty four years I have been on both sides. And, there is the belief held by Mormons, that one feels a burning in the breast as proof of their truth.

All this said, here are some articles that one, if so inclined , could peruse and meditate upon them.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/no_atheists.html

http://www.proginosko.com/2011/12/antitheism-presupposes-theism-and-so-does-ever...

http://www.proginosko.com/2011/12/antitheism-presupposes-theism-and-so-does-ever...

http://www.christianciv.com/Atheists_Confess.htm


BTW, though not a proper topic here, still, I hope you keep to your stated view and vote to stay in The EU


Thanks for the links.

Yes, I will vote Remain.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #15 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 5:31pm
Print Post  
Limey wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 1:24pm:
I wouldn't dream of suggesting that the Bible is fiction.

Obviously,  it's not going to be 100% reliable on things like timescales,  numbers killed in battle,  etc but of course there really was a King David, a Ruth, a Jericho.

Proving they existed,  by means of archæology, is not the same as proving there's a God.


You do see the difference,  don't you?


History is vital, if there is no David, then there can be no Jesus.  It is all directly related and ties into the prophesy of scripture by the prophets regarding the Messiah.  The Bible states that Jesus is a descendant of David, so if there was no David of the Bible you could destroy Christiananity.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 14,690
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #16 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 6:34pm
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 5:31pm:
History is vital, if there is no David, then there can be no Jesus.  It is all directly related and ties into the prophesy of scripture by the prophets regarding the Messiah.  The Bible states that Jesus is a descendant of David, so if there was no David of the Bible you could destroy Christiananity.


Well, yes, but that's not my point.

My point is that strong evidence of David, or Moses, or Ruth, or even Jesus, is not evidence at all of God.


If a clever pain-in-the-arse atheist archæologist manages to conclusively prove that David never existed, likewise,  that is entirely irrelevant to anyone's belief in God.

You believe because you believe.

Proof is in a different category.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #17 - Jun 9th, 2016 at 2:50pm
Print Post  
Limey wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 6:34pm:
Well, yes, but that's not my point.

My point is that strong evidence of David, or Moses, or Ruth, or even Jesus, is not evidence at all of God.


If a clever pain-in-the-arse atheist archæologist manages to conclusively prove that David never existed, likewise,  that is entirely irrelevant to anyone's belief in God.

You believe because you believe.

Proof is in a different category.

It is if you read scripture and understand the crtical links throughout scripture of the coming messiah and it's fulfillment as shown in the letters of the New Testament.  It is entirely relevant to the Christian faith.  Isaiah 53 describes in detail the messiah as was witnessed by the apostles.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 14,690
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #18 - Jun 9th, 2016 at 4:54pm
Print Post  
Seawolf,  once again you are trying to lift yourself up by your boot straps.

The proof, or even arguably the evidence,  of something is not "I believe what is written in this book".

Anyone can write anything in a book.

Anyone can believe it.

'tain't proof.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seawolf
LNF Moderator
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 20,172
Joined: Oct 31st, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #19 - Jun 10th, 2016 at 6:03am
Print Post  
Limey wrote on Jun 9th, 2016 at 4:54pm:
Seawolf,  once again you are trying to lift yourself up by your boot straps.

The proof, or even arguably the evidence,  of something is not "I believe what is written in this book".

Anyone can write anything in a book.

Anyone can believe it.

'tain't proof.

1. The Uniqueness of its Composition

The Bible is comprised of 66 separate books, and it was written over a period of at least 1.500 years by more than 40 authors who for the most part didn't know each other personally.

The writers of the Bible came from different social and occupational backgrounds (for example Moses – political leader, educated in Pharao's palace; Joshua – general; Solomon – king; Amos – shepherd; Nehemiah – cup-bearer; Daniel – politician; Peter – fisherman; Luke – physician; Matthew – tax-collector).

The authors of the Bible wrote in completely different geographic environments and under different circumstances (for example Moses – in the desert; Jeremiah – in a prison; David – in the mountains and in his palace; Paul – in prison; Luke – during his journeys; John – during his exil on Patmos).

They wrote in different states of mind – one in a state of great joy, the other in a state of mourning and despair.

The Bible was composed on three different continents (Asia, Africa and Europe) and in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek).

2. The Uniqueness of its Thematic Unity

Unity in its objective: Although the Bible was written by about 40 different authors during a period of at least 1.500 years and although these writers lived on three different continents and belonged to various cultures, the Bible has a unifying objective. The main theme is to give answers to these basic questions:

Who is God?

Who is man?

Is there a possibility for a relationship between God and man, and if so – how?

The Bible wants to lead man to God (cf. John 20:31 and 2 Timothy 3:14-17).

Unity in its contents: The whole book is about one central figure – Jesus Christ. Basically, the complete Old Testament points to this Person, be it through metaphors or be it through direct prophecies. The New Testament shows us the fulfillment of these prophecies and the meaning and the consequences of the coming of Christ.

3. The Uniqueness of its Relevance

Although the Bible is already many centuries old, it is still read regularly and with great interest by very many people.

The Bible is a book that has been relevant in every epoch of world history – whether in times of war or peace, in the Dark Ages or in our modern technological age. Millions of people have found nourishment, help, and encouragement in this book.

The Bible is the only book in the world that is read by people from all walks of life and from every age group.

4. The Uniqueness of its Circulation

The Bible is one of the first books that have ever been translated. About 250 B.C. the Old Testament was translated into the Greek language (the Septuagint).

The Bible was the first major book that was printed – in form of the Latin Vulgate on Gutenberg's press.

It is the most-translated and most-spread book in the world (in 2002, the Bible had been translated into 2287 languages: the complete Bible into 392 languages, the New Testament into 1012 languages and single books of the Bible into 883 languages), with a still increasing tendency.

5. The Uniqueness of its Survival

It has survived time: Although the Bible was written on perishable material and therefore had to be copied by hand for many centuries until the art of printing had been invented, neither its accuracy nor its existence has suffered.

It has survived persecution: The Bible has withstood the most malicious onslaughts of its enemies like no other book. For centuries people have tried to burn, ban, and outlaw the Bible.

It has survived criticism: An army of rationalists arose who thought up the wildest and most intense attacks against the Bible. But nevertheless, the Bible has been distributed more, read more and cherished more than any other book.

6. The Uniqueness of its Literary Character

According to Arthur Brisbane (a non-Christian), the Bible contains brilliant examples of great literature in any form: lyric poetry – the Psalms, epic poetry – Genesis; dramatic poetry – Job; historic narrative art – the Books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles; rural idyll – Ruth; patriotism – Esther and Daniel; practical wisdom – Proverbs; philosophie – Ecclesiastes; moving depth – Isaiah; short stories – the Gospels; letters – the various Epistles of the New Testament; thrilling mysticism – the Book of Revelation.

A long literary stream of books inspired by the Bible testifies to the influence of the Bible on the world literature.

  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Coming here soon !

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules