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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Coming here soon ! (Read 5,988 times)
Frank1
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #70 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 11:54am
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fair-minded know it all wrote on Jun 7th, 2016 at 3:01pm:
Grandiose statement, but simply foolish and ignorant.  You're not completely at fault.  Pundits, schools, textbooks have kept regurgitating 19th century "science" which has been thoroughly disproven by advances in paleontology, genetics, philosophy, archeology and other sciences.   Most people, like yourself have done no research of their own but simply repeat the diatribes that are popular today.  Simply giggling and calling Christianity laughable betrays a lack of critical thinking.  Take some time to actually review the facts. The stakes are to high too willfully remain in ignorance.


Science today is still materialist.  To try to prove God, or the truth of Christianity through materialist science, whether 19th century, 20th century, or 21st century, is wrong-headed. 

People assume "science" is somehow above other means of proof because they forget that science is nothing without deductive logic.  Experiments, if they do not have deductive logic applied to them, tell us nothing.

Experiments need deductive logic; but deductive logic does not need experiments.

Prove God, and the truth of your religion through logic.




  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #71 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 12:00pm
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Limey wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 6:12am:
Where there is an increase in education and wealth, there tends to be a decrease in religious behaviour. That is broadly what has happened to the Church in England over, what, the last 100 years or so.


Education is just a word.  It all depends what type of education one is getting.  Naturally a secular education will produce a secular populace, as a religious education will produce a religious populace.

My girlfriend from the Philippines, a scientist who has worked all over Asia and taught in the most prestigious school in the Philippines (which is a private Catholic school) is also devoutly religious, as is every Filippino I have met, because they were educated into Catholicism.

You, by contrast, were given a secular education.

The moral of the story is that you cannot just use the word "education" by itself without specifying a type of education.  I do not care that almost everyone does use the word education as a standalone...this just shows the sad degree to which people do not think beyond the first step in an argument.   Cry

Give people a religious education, and they will be religious.  Give them a secular education and they will be secular.



As to the increase of wealth diminishing religious faith I will agree with you.  This is because for most people their main concern is comfort, thus when they are comfortable here on earth they stop thinking about anything beyond earth (often they just stop thinking about anything much at all, but that is a different story).  Of course, this is not true for all people.


But to say that people are less religious when wealthy than they are when poor is no type of argument either for or against the truth of a religion. 





  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Frank1
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #72 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 12:16pm
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Limey wrote on Jun 8th, 2016 at 6:12am:
Probably the children of religious immigrant parents will continue this trend. You can be born in to a Christian family, or a Muslim one, that doesn't necessarily make you that religion.


Really this depends a lot on what type of education these children receive.  If they receive a strongly secular education, there is a good chance it will stick, but then there is the fact that their parents might give them a strong religious education.

Also, regardless of the strength of either of their educations, for the immigrants their choice of religion or irreligion will to some extent reflect how much they feel a part of British society as a whole.

Likely, as more immigrants come, they will assert themselves more, and there will be more conflict, making it more likely that immigrant children will reject secular British culture because they do not feel welcomed in it, for racial or religious reasons or both.

But none of the above is an argument for or against the truth of a religion.




  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #73 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 2:47pm
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 15th, 2016 at 12:16pm:
Really this depends a lot on what type of education these children receive.  If they receive a strongly secular education, there is a good chance it will stick, but then there is the fact that their parents might give them a strong religious education.

Also, regardless of the strength of either of their educations, for the immigrants their choice of religion or irreligion will to some extent reflect how much they feel a part of British society as a whole.

Likely, as more immigrants come, they will assert themselves more, and there will be more conflict, making it more likely that immigrant children will reject secular British culture because they do not feel welcomed in it, for racial or religious reasons or both.

But none of the above is an argument for or against the truth of a religion.


Europe is a great place for integration. It's the only place where you can meet all kinds of mélanges, like a black guy speaking French with a strong German accent for example, and that's not something exceptional, far from it. Most immigrants there become French, German or British citizens after a generation or two in the country. People here only talk about the handful that refuse to become part of the country where they live. Sometimes they go postal and commit acts of violence, but compared to the rest they are only a minute minority.
  

Non sequitur:

Donkey Hoe Tay wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Limey
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #74 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 6:03pm
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 15th, 2016 at 12:00pm:
Education is just a word.  It all depends what type of education one is getting.  Naturally a secular education will produce a secular populace, as a religious education will produce a religious populace.

My girlfriend from the Philippines, a scientist who has worked all over Asia and taught in the most prestigious school in the Philippines (which is a private Catholic school) is also devoutly religious, as is every Filippino I have met, because they were educated into Catholicism.

You, by contrast, were given a secular education.

The moral of the story is that you cannot just use the word "education" by itself without specifying a type of education.  I do not care that almost everyone does use the word education as a standalone...this just shows the sad degree to which people do not think beyond the first step in an argument.   Cry

Give people a religious education, and they will be religious.  Give them a secular education and they will be secular.



As to the increase of wealth diminishing religious faith I will agree with you.  This is because for most people their main concern is comfort, thus when they are comfortable here on earth they stop thinking about anything beyond earth (often they just stop thinking about anything much at all, but that is a different story).  Of course, this is not true for all people.


But to say that people are less religious when wealthy than they are when poor is no type of argument either for or against the truth of a religion. 







I shall reply more fully tomorrow hopefully. But meantime,  please note,  no one in England or very nearly no one has had a secular education for many decades.

From  http://www.assemblies.org.uk/resources/advice-law/

Quote:
the head teacher is responsible for arranging daily collective worship (assembly);
daily collective worship must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character but only 51 per cent need be identifiably 'Christian' with the remaining 49 per cent reflecting other faiths or 'interests' over the course of a year;
it can happen at any time of the school day and should generally happen on the school premises;
parents can withdraw children from assemblies;
teachers may withdraw from assemblies;
the school's annual prospectus should carry information about collective worship and how parents may withdraw their children from it;
the above apply to state community schools. Church or faith-based schools will have their own way of applying the law within their specific context.


I guess this would be unconstitutional in America,  so it's odd that you lot are still,  broadly,  religious whereas here, the Churches are mostly dying on their arses.

  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Limey
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #75 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 7:55pm
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http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1727133-Has-anyone-withdrawn-their-child-fro...

...just a random chat from a quick Yahoogle on this for UK.

Mumsnet is brilliant by the way.


To repeat,  for you American guys.

Every State school in England and Wales must have an assembly of all pupils and staff, daily,  which is broadly of a Christian character.


How do you like them apples?
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #76 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 7:59pm
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Limey wrote on Jun 15th, 2016 at 6:03pm:
I shall reply more fully tomorrow hopefully. But meantime,  please note,  no one in England or very nearly no one has had a secular education for many decades.

From  http://www.assemblies.org.uk/resources/advice-law/


I guess this would be unconstitutional in America,  so it's odd that you lot are still,  broadly,  religious whereas here, the Churches are mostly dying on their arses.



Ok, but one assembly a day does not a religious education make.  Not to mention, I wonder how vigorously the preaching is that the students receive.  Our version of Anglicanism, Episcopalianism, is increasingly just the form of a religion completely emptied of the spirit.  By impression from a distance is that the Church of England is similar: forms emptied of all spirit.

Your example hardly seems to be a Jesuit education. 
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Limey
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #77 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 10:27pm
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 15th, 2016 at 7:59pm:
Ok, but one assembly a day does not a religious education make.  Not to mention, I wonder how vigorously the preaching is that the students receive.  Our version of Anglicanism, Episcopalianism, is increasingly just the form of a religion completely emptied of the spirit.  By impression from a distance is that the Church of England is similar: forms emptied of all spirit.

Your example hardly seems to be a Jesuit education. 


"broadly Christian"  is not equal to "Anglican".

You seem to be sliding away from your earlier position.

Education in England is not secular.

I can tell you from personal experience that in my day (I am 48, although most days up until around 3Rd cup of tea I feel about 94) we had a mini-service every morning.

Hymns.

Sermon


Prayers.

Hymns.

Blessing (if the Vicar was there).

What more do you want?

A madrassa for Christians?
  

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Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #78 - Jun 16th, 2016 at 9:12am
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Limey wrote on Jun 15th, 2016 at 10:27pm:
"broadly Christian"  is not equal to "Anglican".

You seem to be sliding away from your earlier position.

Education in England is not secular.

I can tell you from personal experience that in my day (I am 48, although most days up until around 3Rd cup of tea I feel about 94) we had a mini-service every morning.

Hymns.

Sermon


Prayers.

Hymns.

Blessing (if the Vicar was there).

What more do you want?

A madrassa for Christians?


Not sliding away.  Of course education matters.  Unless you are going to assert that somehow the average English person is just smarter than people in other parts of the world in rejecting religious education, we must conclude that education in England is not very religious, even if you sing some hymns and have religious assemblies.

Or, if education in England is deeply religious, there is some strong counter-acting force that renders this deeply religious education null and void. 

Either way, we still cannot simply say "education" lessons religious faith.  It all depends on the type of education.



**As you mention madrassa's, I will point that in such a place one receives a strong religious education.  Ideally students will go through the Koran line by line with an individual teacher.  They will also study the best commentaries on the Koran, Islamic law, etc.  They will do this for hours a day ideally.  That is a deeply religious education.


This is not the same as having an assembly, and then going back to an otherwise secular education.  I had something like what you speak of, though of course not part of public school.  I went to PSR (Parish School Religion) classes, which is like Catholic Sunday school.  But this was hardly like a madrassa education.  It involved a service, some singing, and then some group instruction in the basement of the church.  But I otherwise received a secular education, as with you, and a little bit of PSR did not counteract a larger education where all the assumptions were secular.
« Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2016 at 9:43am by Frank1 »  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Frank1
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Re: Coming here soon !
Reply #79 - Jun 16th, 2016 at 10:04am
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Lets sum up what we said so far, Limey.

You originally said an increase in education makes people secular.

I said, it depends on the type of education one receives as to whether they will turn out secular or religious.

You then said that you have religious services in English schools, I guess meaning to imply you received a religious education.

But then, the implication would be that even a religious education makes secular people!... Cheesy

Obviously a religious education does not make secular people, or everyone who went to a madrassa would come out a secular humanist, and the Amish would be raising scores of little atheists each year.  If religious education produced secular people, religion wouldn't last more than one generation, because as soon as you tried to educate anyone in a religion, they would become secular.

The only logical conclusion is that the main thrust of English education, indeed of most education in Western countries, is secular, and that with your case, the religious element was simply a small decoration on an otherwise secular construct.
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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