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Frank1
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Apropos Queshank
Sep 3rd, 2016 at 10:18pm
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Queshank seems to think religion, or 'religious people' are not comfortable without answers.*

I read a lot of Wendell Berry and one of his big themes is mystery, and modern mans arrogance in downplaying the mysteries around us, thinking we can 'know everything' with SCIENCE!

Anyways, the following scene is from the movie The Tree of Life.  It is the filmmaker's (Terene Malick) meditation on the Biblical scene where God poses some questions to Job that reveal Job's great ignorance, and the ignorance of mankind in general.

I liked the scene when I was still an atheist. 



"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?...When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?  Job 38:4,7





*I would point out that, as most people who have lived have been religious, when one speaks of 'religious people' we are talking of a huge mass of differing personalities, intelligences, educations, etc., which will effect an individuals view of religion. 

**I of course realize that progressive evolution, both cosmic and biological, is portrayed above, and I reject such theories.  But I take the overall point, that we are part of something much bigger than ourselves, part of a great mystery.
« Last Edit: Sep 3rd, 2016 at 10:33pm by Frank1 »  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Limey
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Re: Apropos Queshank
Reply #1 - Sep 3rd, 2016 at 10:43pm
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Frank1 wrote on Sep 3rd, 2016 at 10:18pm:
Queshank seems to think religion, or 'religious people' are not comfortable without answers.*

I read a lot of Wendell Berry and one of his big themes is mystery, and modern mans arrogance in downplaying the mysteries around us, thinking we can 'know everything' with SCIENCE!

Anyways, the following scene is from the movie The Tree of Life.  It is the filmmaker's (Terene Malick) meditation on the Biblical scene where God poses some questions to Job that reveal Job's great ignorance, and the ignorance of mankind in general.

I liked the scene when I was still an atheist. 



"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?...When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?  Job 38:4,7





*I would point out that, as most people who have lived have been religious, when one speaks of 'religious people' we are talking of a huge mass of differing personalities, intelligences, educations, etc., which will effect an individuals view of religion. 

**I of course realize that progressive evolution, both cosmic and biological, is portrayed above, and I reject such theories.  But I take the overall point, that we are part of something much bigger than ourselves, part of a great mystery.


Bullshit.

The whole point of religion is to pretend you have answers.

This "we're not sure... But..." crap is disguising that fake certainty.

Fact: religion is make-believe.

Fact: science is incomplete.

Fact: science may, or may not, answer our questions

Fact: religion can give you any answer you like. Just believe
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Apropos Queshank
Reply #2 - Sep 3rd, 2016 at 10:54pm
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Limey wrote on Sep 3rd, 2016 at 10:43pm:
Bullshit.

The whole point of religion is to pretend you have answers.

This "we're not sure... But..." crap is disguising that fake certainty.

Fact: religion is make-believe.

Fact: science is incomplete.

Fact: science may, or may not, answer our questions

Fact: religion can give you any answer you like. Just believe


You could try a little harder, limey.   Wink

Science can give you any answer you like, at least when it reaches into the human sphere.

As I have pointed out many times one need only take the 180 degree turn in scientific views of race that occurred in a very short period of time around WWII as evidence of this fact.

This change in view had nothing to do with science improving...rather, interpretations of what various types of evidence meant fundamentally changed.

Awareness of how much science is concerned with interpretation of evidence and how interpretation is to a large extent determined by various cultural factors is growing.
It has made its ways into grad schools.  My girlfriend has been reviewing papers about the 'Nature of Science' for various academic conferences.  As she loves to say 'science is a human activity.'

How long this understanding of how cultural factors effect science will take to creep down to the 'man on the street' I do not know.



*Note: I am not saying that science can tell us nothing.  Especially when science is applied, as with technology, it is relatively 'hard.'  Science tends to get more and more sloppy as it approaches biology and all things human.  On this level you get bullshit like the biological theory of evolution, skull measurements to determine racial superiority or inferiority, and all the hogwash of popular science articles on subjects like neuroscience.
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: Apropos Queshank
Reply #3 - Sep 4th, 2016 at 1:15pm
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......But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties,...


That's Churchill,  an extract from his great speech after France fell.

The concept of "perverted science"  was a good one, although I don't think that it's what you're talking about.

However,  your statement "science can give you any answer you like"  leans in to the idea of a "perverted"  science.

Religion can, indeed,  give you any answer you like because you can quite literally make it up.

(don't let's go to Mormontown again - damn, that was fun!)
  

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Re: Apropos Queshank
Reply #4 - Sep 6th, 2016 at 2:01pm
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Frank1 wrote on Sep 3rd, 2016 at 10:18pm:
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?...When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?  Job 38:4,7


I really enjoy this passage because I understand the context.  Job and his friends have been trying to figure out why Job has suffered a calamity.  Job's friends have been trying, without success, to suss out Job's secret sins.  Job argues repeatedly that he really doesn't know of any wrongdoing, and that he has taken care to live a virtuous life.  The friends argue without reaching any conclusion.

At the end of the work, God pops out of a whirlwind and tells everyone to shut the crappity smack up.  It's disguised by a bunch of bullshit like that quoted verse, but the essence of God's speech is that Job and his friends should stop thinking and asking questions.  It's a Trump-like response: bullying, insults, and intimidation to distract from the lack of answers.

Of course, God doesn't exist, so the end of Job never actually happened.  From the Hebrew it's clear that God's speech (and the God/Satan chats at the beginning of the book) were written by someone different than the middle of the book.  Even in translation, the difference in styles is unmistakable and jarring.

Bible textual scholars are largely in agreement that the discussion between Job and his friends is the oldest-surviving portion of the Bible.  The second, later author, who put the God/Satan discussion at the beginning and God's speech at the end, appears to have been deeply unsatisfied with the inability of Job and his friends to resolve the issue.  The second author's explanation - a ridiculous bet between God and Satan - is also no answer.

Neither the first author nor the second author could answer the question.  And that is the first lesson of Job: suffering doesn't have any meaning; it just happens.  The second lesson of Job is that human concepts of virtue and un-virtue, however important, don't affect the operation of the universe or the distribution of good and bad fortune.  If you approach virtue with the goal of wealth, happiness, or an easy life, you may be sorely disappointed.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Apropos Queshank
Reply #5 - Sep 6th, 2016 at 10:25pm
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Let me put it this way.

Science is about observation.  You observe something and make notes.  Great.

However, the mere facts derived from observation then need to be interpreted.

Interpretation is where things get sticky, and where the scientists biases really come into play.

Lets say I am a scientist in 1913, at the height of Western global domination.  I am a biologist and I study skulls of humans.  I note differences between the skull types of different races.  That is observation.

However, once I have observed the skulls interpretation comes into play, and this is where the white superiority bias of a Western scientist in 1913 would come into play.  Believing white men are superior to all others, said scientist would be likely to interpret the Western skull formation as somehow superior to others.

Now, lets take a biologist in 2013.  He is studying the human genome.  He makes observations and catalogues facts.  Great, but then the catalogued facts must be interpreted.  In 2013, when globalization, racial equality, and multiculturalism are on the political agenda, the scientist interprets his facts as showing that race has no biological reality.

As to Darwin, C.S. Lewis, pointed out in some lecture or essay that the idea of progress had already begun to spread through the world of Western literature (the area of Lewis's expertise) by the time Darwin came along.  The idea of historical progress was well-established.*  Darwin simply took this idea of progress and applied it to biology.

Darwin's theory was accepted almost overnight not because there was any proof for it, but because it perfectly fit the burgeoning progressive and secular mindset of the mid-19th Western intelligentsia.  Now we do not need a Creator, men evolved up apes, Genesis is wrong!

The fact is, you can look at species and fossils and note similarities but none of this is 'proof' of biological evolution.  Biological evolution is simply a convenient (and false) interpretation of the facts that happens to suit the current Western mindset.


*The French and American Revolutions certainly helped to establish the progressive mindset...these revolutions were billed as ringing in a new era of freedom.

**I am not saying we cannot know anything...rather, I am saying science gives us facts.  Interpretations of the facts are something else, and interpretation is based, either implicitly or explicitly, on the interpreters worldview, or philosophy.

Thus we get back to the old ways of knowing: philosophy, logic, metaphysics, religion, etc.  You want to really know, if you want to have any wisdom beyond mere facts, study the aforementioned first, not modern science.
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: Apropos Queshank
Reply #6 - Sep 7th, 2016 at 1:26pm
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Frank1 wrote on Sep 6th, 2016 at 10:25pm:
Let me put it this way.

Science is about observation.  You observe something and make notes.  Great.

However, the mere facts derived from observation then need to be interpreted.

Interpretation is where things get sticky, and where the scientists biases really come into play.


Scientists are not perfectly objective.  No one claims they are, and none of us are.  This has been noted by...scientists.  Max Planck, who made enormous contributions to physics at the turn of the 20th century, made a now famous quip that "Science advances one funeral at a time."

Here is where an ignoramus says, "Everything is subjective and unproveable, so my nonsense fantasies are just as good as the germ theory of disease."  Nice try.  Science is a not a set of beliefs, it's a process.  The trust that science has built up isn't due to the infallible character of scientists (not infallible) or the errorless doctrines it has propounded (no doctrines), it's due to its endless, incredibly successful work of making better, more accurate models of the physical universe.

Your race example is a good example of science at work.  Scientists brought their racism to science, trying to create a scientific model of race.  (Note: most of the European Christians were also racists.)  Other scientists attacked the models, other models were proposed, those were attacked, and so on.  After a few decades, it became increasingly clear that no one could draw a race line that explained human biology in any coherent way.  (To wit, there is more human genetic diversity in sub-Saharan Africa than in the rest of the world combined.)  Advances in epistemology showed that race is, and always had been, a political concept.

Far from being a case of biases ruining science, this nicely illustrates the process of science, testing and breaking a concept that seemed right but couldn't actually model human biology.

Quote:
Darwin's theory was accepted almost overnight


False.

Quote:
The fact is, you can look at species and fossils and note similarities but none of this is 'proof' of biological evolution.


Science doesn't deal in proof.  Proof is for math.  Science's work is to create ever-better models of the operation of the physical universe.

As usual, your fine writing skills and unwarranted self-confidence cover up that you simply don't know what you're talking about.  Evolution is much, much more than just fossils.  Here are 29 Evidences for Evolution.  Note that the evidence is not at all limited to fossils.  As usual, if you have a better explanatory theory, feel free to publish your work and claim your Nobel Prize.

Of course, it's clear the lie you want to tell yourself.  You had some religious experience.  It felt so awesome, so different from anything you've ever felt.  You're special.  You have a unique gift.  Your life means something so much more than ordinary pieces of shit like me.  You're farseeing, you're on the path, hell, you're practically a Buddha.

But what the Hell?  All these ordinary pieces of shit disagree with you.  Your "peasant" parents can't understand what you've experienced, what you've become, who you really are now.  Why, people don't actually accept your words as gospel, don't recognize that you've become infinitely wise, infinitely knowledgeable; they're the kind of garbage that just can't understand that you're a saint, a guru, a qutub, a light-worker, a bodhisattva.

Look at these scientists with their theories and their work.  What can they really know?  They're not expansive in their wisdom, unique in their foresight.  They're not gods.  That's why they don't agree with you.  That's why they contradict you.

It's not you that's wrong.  Heavens no.  You caught The Bliss.  You were filled with the Holy Ghost.  Were they or did they?  Of course not, so how could some ordinary piece of shit disagree with a Perfect Master like you?  They only reason they don't recognize your infinite wisdom and knowledge is their bias.  Something's wrong with them when they don't recognize you.  They're broken; you're complete.

I have bad news for you: you're a piece of shit just like the rest of us, and your experience gave you no more insight or wisdom than experiencing your breakfast.  No one is exempt from learning and growing, and your medieval fantasies of being a religious leader while the king takes care of the "dirty" stuff are not reality.  Grow up.
« Last Edit: Sep 7th, 2016 at 4:20pm by Running Deer »  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Apropos Queshank
Reply #7 - Sep 7th, 2016 at 2:47pm
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Harsh, for this forum.


  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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