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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread (Read 3,038 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #30 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:38pm
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 3:59pm:
If those stimuli, desires and wishes our out of our control, why should we then believe we can control our choices? 


Why should we then believe we can control our choices if we cannot control our desires and stimuli?

Well, because we do it all the time.

We do it when we refrain from grabbing the tush of the hot woman in line ahead of us, or when we pull ourselves out of bed every morning to go to a place we don't really want to be.

We act in these ways because we understand that the cost of acting according to our true desires is much too high.

If we were truly a hostage to our impulses and desires, this world would be a complete dumpster fire.

And it would have never arisen above one.

But that's just my take on it.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #31 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:45pm
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BowHunter wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:34pm:
Forget about innuendo... Let's talk about in her endo!!!!


Grin Grin Grin Grin
  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #32 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:48pm
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:45pm:
Grin Grin Grin Grin

Grin

It's nice to talk to a real person once in a while. Wink
  

Non sequitur:

The Hamster is at it Again wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #33 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:50pm
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Fascinating topic.

I am tripping on the McGurk affect. I can hear it differently, for sure.

I have pushed my limits into the dismissal of free will, listening and reading folks like Sam Harris. Like some horribly addictive drug, the reasoning can almost seem to be luring me in to embrace it.

Especially if sober, my head swims with the logic to it. I get it.

But there's a stronger part to me that refrains. There is assuredly an element to illusion to all of it, as the McGurk affect in some small way demonstrates. But consciousness is extraordinary and completely inexplicable. The complexity of the brain so vast that it is compared to the complexity of galaxies.

So I still sit on the fence, leaning one way, but remaining enamored with the discussion, insofar as my feeble and limited mental capacity allows.
  

BowHunter wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 5:08pm:
I am no longer indulging assholes.
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #34 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:56pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:38pm:
Why should we then believe we can control our choices if we cannot control our desires and stimuli?

Well, because we do it all the time.

We do it when we refrain from grabbing the tush of the hot woman in line ahead of us, or when we pull ourselves out of bed every morning to go to a place we don't really want to be.

We act in these ways because we understand that the cost of acting according to our true desires is much too high.

If we were truly a hostage to our impulses and desires, this world would be a complete dumpster fire.

And it would have never arisen above one.

But that's just my take on it.


Thanks for hammering it out on this one, the notion still has me sideways.  Like you, I'd like to believe we are able to assemble all factors that go into a particular choice or decision, but the reality is we can not possibly assemble and evaluate every single factor that goes into our choices.

I'm suggesting it was your impulse to grab that hot fanny that eventually fired other clusters of neurons reminding you what a poor choice that could be.  The experiences that lead you to that conclusion were out of your control, they just happened to you and became part of the tapestry of experiences and emotions that are Toward Liberty.

I'm not suggesting that you made a choice or came to a conclusion.  I'm suggesting however that the notion of freewill isn't as it appears, it's an illusion.  Early psychologists and philosophers were attempting to describe a mirage. There's something going on certainly, but it's being misinterpreted.
  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #35 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 8:00pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:50pm:
Fascinating topic.

I am tripping on the McGurk affect. I can hear it differently, for sure.

I have pushed my limits into the dismissal of free will, listening and reading folks like Sam Harris. Like some horribly addictive drug, the reasoning can almost seem to be luring me in to embrace it.

Especially if sober, my head swims with the logic to it. I get it.

But there's a stronger part to me that refrains. There is assuredly an element to illusion to all of it, as the McGurk affect in some small way demonstrates. But consciousness is extraordinary and completely inexplicable. The complexity of the brain so vast that it is compared to the complexity of galaxies.

So I still sit on the fence, leaning one way, but remaining enamored with the discussion, insofar as my feeble and limited mental capacity allows.



It's "effect". Don't you know anything?
  

Non sequitur:

The Hamster is at it Again wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #36 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 8:03pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:50pm:
Fascinating topic.

I am tripping on the McGurk affect. I can hear it differently, for sure.

I have pushed my limits into the dismissal of free will, listening and reading folks like Sam Harris. Like some horribly addictive drug, the reasoning can almost seem to be luring me in to embrace it.

Especially if sober, my head swims with the logic to it. I get it.

But there's a stronger part to me that refrains. There is assuredly an element to illusion to all of it, as the McGurk affect in some small way demonstrates. But consciousness is extraordinary and completely inexplicable. The complexity of the brain so vast that it is compared to the complexity of galaxies.

So I still sit on the fence, leaning one way, but remaining enamored with the discussion, insofar as my feeble and limited mental capacity allows.


That sums up my position quite eloquently.  I feel like a hippy at the end of a 5 day music festival totally trippin' man!  I'm not going to assume we'll come to some conclusion or "solve" the question of self and freewill, but it's fun to think about.

I believe it was Sam Harris that said there are ways to circumvent the illusion and become "one" with your body and "self," whatever that even means.  Might have been Dan Dennet, but it all sounds very zen, like it's the same thing Tibbettan monks do with their minds.

Incidentally, they designed an experiment using a sensory deprivation tank to induce people into experiencing out of body experiences and feel like they are floating above their bodies.  The researchers were attempting to duplicate the out-of-body experiences reported by some surgical patients or people near death.  Fascinating stuff.
  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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TowardLiberty
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #37 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 8:20pm
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 7:56pm:
Thanks for hammering it out on this one, the notion still has me sideways.  Like you, I'd like to believe we are able to assemble all factors that go into a particular choice or decision, but the reality is we can not possibly assemble and evaluate every single factor that goes into our choices.


Well, that's an even stronger form of free will than I hold is true.

I do believe that we operate in a sea of ignorance and bias. That our experiences and ideas cloud our understanding of reality.

And I recognize the McGurk effect.
Quote:
I'm suggesting it was your impulse to grab that hot fanny that eventually fired other clusters of neurons reminding you what a poor choice that could be.  The experiences that lead you to that conclusion were out of your control, they just happened to you and became part of the tapestry of experiences and emotions that are Toward Liberty.

I'm not suggesting that you made a choice or came to a conclusion.  I'm suggesting however that the notion of freewill isn't as it appears, it's an illusion.  Early psychologists and philosophers were attempting to describe a mirage. There's something going on certainly, but it's being misinterpreted.


Well it's a fascinating question. I'll freely admit that.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #38 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 10:57am
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The Hamster is at it Again wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 3:23am:
Perhaps but I don't have to pathetically nudge my own threads.


Well la dee da.  Some of us do what we must to remain relevant.
  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #39 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:18am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 8:44am:
I would agree that our desires and wishes are out of our control.

Rather that stimulus is channeled into an action that we do in fact select as a means to achieve our goals. It is that purposefulness that is the hallmark of a will.


There is no proof that we actually do any electing at all though, in fact, the latest research suggests that a person can be biased on a particular test or question based on whether they are holding a hot beverage vs. a cold beverage for instance.  No one can seem explain why, it just happens, no free will in the matter.

Also, please consider this thought experiment with Sam Harris, my new bromance. 



  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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