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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread (Read 3,037 times)
BowHunter
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #40 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:18am
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 10:57am:
Well la dee da.  Some of us do what we must to remain relevant.


The struggle for relevancy is a day to day ordeal for bert.
  

Non sequitur:

The Hamster is at it Again wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #41 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:26am
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:18am:
There is no proof that we actually do any electing at all though, in fact, the latest research suggests that a person can be biased on a particular test or question based on whether they are holding a hot beverage vs. a cold beverage for instance.  No one can seem explain why, it just happens, no free will in the matter.

Also, please consider this thought experiment with Sam Harris, my new bromance. 




It strikes me that there is an extreme form of free will being attacked here- the form that says that the will is free when we are aware of why it is we feel as we do. The implication being that we need to be in control of the processes which generate our preferences to have free will.

If that is what free will is, then I don't believe we have it either.

  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #42 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:37am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:26am:
It strikes me that there is an extreme form of free will being attacked here- the form that says that the will is free when we are aware of why it is we feel as we do. The implication being that we need to be in control of the processes which generate our preferences to have free will.

If that is what free will is, then I don't believe we have it either.



That's what's got me all f*cked up.  We can not examine how we came to any conclusions at all.  That thought experiment seems conclusive to me.  Thoughts just happen, you can't choose 'em.

You had no choice but to reexamine this thread because I'm becoming a psychological genius and have been manipulating the strings of your life since the beginning. 

*cackles maniacally*

Or possibly because I bumped the thread.  Both explanations are totally plausible. 

Grin
  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #43 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:37am
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:18am:
There is no proof that we actually do any electing at all though, in fact, the latest research suggests that a person can be biased on a particular test or question based on whether they are holding a hot beverage vs. a cold beverage for instance.  No one can seem explain why, it just happens, no free will in the matter.

Also, please consider this thought experiment with Sam Harris, my new bromance. 






Sam Harris is brilliant.
  

Non sequitur:

The Hamster is at it Again wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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BowHunter
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #44 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:41am
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:37am:
That's what's got me all f*cked up.  We can not examine how we came to any conclusions at all.  That thought experiment seems conclusive to me.  Thoughts just happen, you can't choose 'em.

You had no choice but to reexamine this thread because I'm becoming a psychological genius and have been manipulating the strings of your life since the beginning. 

*cackles maniacally*

Or possibly because I bumped the thread.  Both explanations are totally plausible. 

Grin



Actually, I willed you to bump that thread...
  

Non sequitur:

The Hamster is at it Again wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #45 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:53am
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BowHunter wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:37am:
Sam Harris is brilliant.


I want to have his babies too.
  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #46 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:55am
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BowHunter wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:41am:
Actually, I willed you to bump that thread...


Touche!

Grin
  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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TowardLiberty
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #47 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 12:06pm
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:37am:
That's what's got me all f*cked up.  We can not examine how we came to any conclusions at all.  That thought experiment seems conclusive to me.  Thoughts just happen, you can't choose 'em.

I really can't disagree.

But as much as we can't choose our thoughts, we often times do choose between competing thoughts. And with some difficult choices, we spend significant energy mulling over just what the right choice is to be.

This is not to say we are in complete control of those processes. But when we are deeply grappling with a decision that does strike me as a more "aware" form of reasoning than when we are simply trying to think of the name of a city, or what have you.

So while I don't think a strong form of free will makes a lick of sense, I can't go with a fully deterministic view of the mind either.

  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #48 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 12:22pm
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:18am:
Also, please consider this thought experiment with Sam Harris, my new bromance. 




The Sam Harris / Joe Rogan conversations are great..  Close to 3 hours but worth it.

Joe Rogan Experience #641

Joe Rogan Experience #940



  

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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #49 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 12:47pm
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2017 at 10:38am:
I've been freebasing experimental philosophers again and I'm totally tripping out!  Please bare with me on this one and talk me down if I start really wiggin.

Also I refuse to post this in the Religion forum because it's not "Religion and Philosophy" and there's only like Fiddler, Limey and Bowhunter in there. Total sausage fest, no chicks.

So to begin...

There is no reality, there is only perception.

On top of that, our brain cons us into believing our senses are more powerful and more accurate than they actually are.

Consider the McGurk effect. This is a video of a man repeating a vocalization. I'll spoil it and tell you that it's the same vocalization we'll hear each time, "ba ba, ba ba, ba ba," but since the face we are seeing seems to be mouthing another sound, our brain fills in the missing pieces and "deceives" us.  It's fun to watch this effect and closing you eyes intermittently between each vocal pattern.  It's remarkable to note how the sound is perceived differently in our brains depending on whether or not we can see the mans mouth or not.



So our senses are not interpreted as accurately as we'd like to believe.  My reality is in fact quite different than yours, different brains of course as well as different experiences.  But are we that different really?  What makes you you?

What makes you in adulthood the same person you were when you were 3 years old?  Your given name?  Your social security number?  The fact that you prefer vanilla over chocolate? 

The sense of self is an illusion.  The sense of being an ego or a thinker of thoughts in addition to the thoughts is an illusion.  This sense we all seem to have of riding around in our heads as kind of a passenger in the vehicle of the body is an illusion.  Perhaps we are identical to the body, identical to each other.  Perhaps there is such a thing as a collective consciousness.

Most people don't feel identical to their bodies.  We would rather say that we have bodies.  We tend to assume that we are inside our bodies and furthermore, inside our heads somewhere.  That sense that we are a subject, residing somewhere behind our eyes is entirely an illusion. There is no neuroanatomical evidence, no place in the brain for the ego to hide.  We only know that everything you experience, your conscious emotions, thoughts and moods, our impulses and behaviors are delivered by clusters of neurons firing in our brain. 

That's it.  Just clusters of cells firing in your brain.  Not one of those cells knows who you are or cares.  Somehow we intuit that those cell clusters can interpret and accurately describe the sweet tang of a kumquat and the world around us.



Ok.  Which pill did you take? 

The red one or the blue one?

I can help but I need to know which one you took!

Queshank
  

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.

Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
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