Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 16 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread (Read 3,031 times)
Queshank
LNF Representative3
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 3,908
Location: South Dakota
Joined: Apr 22nd, 2015
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #50 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 12:52pm
Print Post  
TowardLiberty wrote on Jan 22nd, 2017 at 12:32pm:
Nice thread. I like the topic.

I definitely take the opposite side in this debate.

I don't think we can say that there is no objective reality. Sure we all experience it differently. But we are experiencing something.

There must be something for our senses to perceive- something that exists whether we perceive it or not.

If not we would have no sensory input.

I grant that our senses trick us into thinking that we are getting a direct sensory experience. That's straight forward. But I do not see how this fact or idea is at odds with an underlying objective reality.

And we know that there is an underlying objective reality. If not we could not repeat experiments and find regularities.

We wouldn't be able to build bridges or fly planes. For these complex arrangements are built on thousands of assumptions about the nature of reality.

Regarding free will and the self- sure science does not know where this is located in the brain. There are things we do not understand and might never understand about consciousness.

But what is undeniable is there is an ego in all of us.

Is it a mere chemical illusion? Maybe so.

But there is nothing in the idea of consciousness or free will that says it cannot be chemical in nature. Why wouldn't it be?

What we do know is that these chemical reactions give way to thoughts, goals, and plans.

And they are not random.

Your brain did not put these words down just because of a random chemical release. You made this post because you had a point you wanted to share with the rest of the board. There is a purpose behind your actions.

If there was no intelligence or agency guiding your actions, and only random chemical chance, then the order and rationality that we see in so much human action/ behavior would be the most improbable good fortune.



Of course there's no objective reality.

If there were, two incredibly smart people would find it impossible to disagree.

There's no such thing as objective reality because our observations and our experiences are all subjective.  100% subjective.  There is no possible way to make our experiences objective.  Our mind will deceive us every time we try.  Ironically, you can't believe in science and believe in an objective reality.  All scientific experimentation leads us to the inevitable conclusion that there isn't one.

Because our mind didn't evolve to provide objective analysis.  It evolved to survive.  And objectivity is irrelevant to survival.  You can believe in Jesus and I can believe in Buddha and Captain Obvious can believe in Chairman Mao like the dirty commie he is.  And we can all survive equally well.

These are those variables we've been talking about for years TL.  We are all merely responding to how we've been programmed by outside stimuli. 

Queshank
  

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.

Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 30,880
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #51 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 1:14pm
Print Post  
Queshank wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 12:52pm:
Of course there's no objective reality.

If there were, two incredibly smart people would find it impossible to disagree.

There's no such thing as objective reality because our observations and our experiences are all subjective.  100% subjective.  There is no possible way to make our experiences objective.  Our mind will deceive us every time we try.  Ironically, you can't believe in science and believe in an objective reality.  All scientific experimentation leads us to the inevitable conclusion that there isn't one.

Because our mind didn't evolve to provide objective analysis.  It evolved to survive.  And objectivity is irrelevant to survival.  You can believe in Jesus and I can believe in Buddha and Captain Obvious can believe in Chairman Mao like the dirty commie he is.  And we can all survive equally well.

These are those variables we've been talking about for years TL.  We are all merely responding to how we've been programmed by outside stimuli. 

Queshank

That's sarcasm, right?

  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Queshank
LNF Representative3
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 3,908
Location: South Dakota
Joined: Apr 22nd, 2015
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #52 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 1:27pm
Print Post  
TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 1:14pm:
That's sarcasm, right?



Nope.  That's the God's honest truth.  Which God I'll leave up to you.

Queshank
  

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.

Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BowHunter
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 17,369
Location: America
Joined: Dec 5th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #53 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 1:35pm
Print Post  
Queshank wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 1:27pm:
Nope.  That's the God's honest truth.  Which God I'll leave up to you.

Queshank


IOW, you're just trolling the thread...
  

Non sequitur:

The Hamster is at it Again wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Online

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,249
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #54 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 1:49pm
Print Post  
Queshank wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 12:47pm:
Ok.  Which pill did you take? 

The red one or the blue one?

I can help but I need to know which one you took!

Queshank


Honestly, when I was presented the question, I was already coming down off something I took at an open air mountain music festival.  I needed something, so I took them both.

I can see two of everything, both sides of the damn coin.  Maybe we're not really really real.    Undecided


  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Online

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,249
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #55 - Oct 10th, 2017 at 2:00pm
Print Post  
Queshank wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 12:52pm:
Of course there's no objective reality.

If there were, two incredibly smart people would find it impossible to disagree.

There's no such thing as objective reality because our observations and our experiences are all subjective.  100% subjective.  There is no possible way to make our experiences objective.  Our mind will deceive us every time we try.  Ironically, you can't believe in science and believe in an objective reality.  All scientific experimentation leads us to the inevitable conclusion that there isn't one.

Because our mind didn't evolve to provide objective analysis.  It evolved to survive.  And objectivity is irrelevant to survival.  You can believe in Jesus and I can believe in Buddha and Captain Obvious can believe in Chairman Mao like the dirty commie he is.  And we can all survive equally well.

These are those variables we've been talking about for years TL.  We are all merely responding to how we've been programmed by outside stimuli. 

Queshank


I'll have to agree with TL and object, but I can see where you're going on that one, but it's probably misguided. 

I don't think it's being suggested that there isn't in fact an objective reality that we all seem to share, but that reality isn't what it appears.  The illusion means it's not what it appears to be, but something is there.  We can only perceive and witness it, record the story in our brain, an organic computer. 

You guessed it, Aliens.

  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 30,880
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #56 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:58am
Print Post  
Queshank wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 12:52pm:
Of course there's no objective reality.


That contradicts itself.

For you are suggesting that it is objectively true that there is no objective realty.

You are passing off a lack off objective reality has a hard truth about reality- which means reality is in some degree objective. Or your hard truth wouldn't be true either.

Essentially, this is the same as saying "it's true that truth does not exist," which is an obvious contradiction.

Quote:
If there were, two incredibly smart people would find it impossible to disagree.


That doesn't follow.

Just because two smart people disagree about how they perceive reality, it does not follow that reality is not objective.

For you are excluding a possible solution to this riddle. We could be experiencing an objective reality subjectively.

That would account for the difference of opinion.

Now it may be true that there is no objective reality. But merely pointing to a disagreement is no proof of it.

Quote:
There's no such thing as objective reality because our observations and our experiences are all subjective.  100% subjective.  There is no possible way to make our experiences objective.  Our mind will deceive us every time we try.  Ironically, you can't believe in science and believe in an objective reality.  All scientific experimentation leads us to the inevitable conclusion that there isn't one.


That seems like a non-sequitur.

I'll fully agree with you about the nature of perception. But that does not get us any closer to proving reality itself is subjective.

All science is predicated on the idea of objective reality. That's the whole point of experimenting. If reality were subjective, nothing could be falsified by experiment because there would no be underlying true reality to compare a hypothesis against.

All hypotheses would be true because reality would be subjective to our beliefs about it. Hence we would never be wrong.

All hypotheses would be true and false at once.

Quote:
Because our mind didn't evolve to provide objective analysis.  It evolved to survive.  And objectivity is irrelevant to survival.  You can believe in Jesus and I can believe in Buddha and Captain Obvious can believe in Chairman Mao like the dirty commie he is.  And we can all survive equally well.

These are those variables we've been talking about for years TL.  We are all merely responding to how we've been programmed by outside stimuli. 

Queshank


It seems like you are arguing that perception is reality. I say that because you have spent all your time arguing that perception is subjective, which is undeniable, but then for some reason this has been used as an argument for why reality itself is subjective too.

The only way that leap makes sense is if we collapse reality into perception.

And then all is mind.
« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:08pm by TowardLiberty »  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Online

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,249
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #57 - Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:07pm
Print Post  
TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:58am:
That contradicts itself.

For you are suggesting that it is objectively true that there is no objective realty.

You are passing off a lack off objective reality has a hard truth about reality- which means reality is in some degree objective. Or your hard truth wouldn't be true either.

Essentially, this is the same as saying "it's true that truth does not exist," which is an obvious contradiction.


That doesn't follow.

Just because two smart people disagree about how they perceive reality, it does not follow that reality is not objective.

For you are excluding a possible solution to this riddle. We could be experiencing an objective reality subjectively.

That would account for the difference of opinion.

Now it may be true that there is no objective reality. But merely pointing to a disagreement is no proof of it.


That seems like a non-sequitur.

I'll fully agree with you about the nature of perception. But that does not get us any closer to proving reality itself is subjective.

All science is predicated on the idea of objective reality. That's the whole point of experimenting. If reality were subjective, nothing could be falsified by experiment because there would no be underlying true reality to compare a hypothesis against.

All hypotheses would be true because reality would be subjective to our beliefs about it. Hence we would never be wrong.

All hypotheses would be true and false at once.


It seems like you are arguing that perception is reality. I say that because you have spent all your time arguing that perception is subjective, which is undeniable, but then for some reason this has been used as an argument for why reality itself is subjective too.

The only way that leap makes sense is if we collapse reality into perception.

And then all is mind.


Exactly!  The fact that 2 + 2 = 4 necessarily means there is an objective reality that we can all seemingly agree on.  Taken a step further it also means there is no freewill.

Someone who understands math has no choice but to think 2 + 2 = 4.  No freewill in that. Reason and logic are possible not because we are free to think however we want but because we are not free. 

Reason makes slaves of us all.  Sam Harris
« Last Edit: Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:13pm by Nazi Hunter B.S.C. »  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 30,880
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #58 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 11:20am
Print Post  
Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:07pm:
Exactly!  The fact that 2 + 2 = 4 necessarily means there is an objective reality that we can all seemingly agree on.  Taken a step further it also means there is no freewill.

Someone who understands math has no choice but to think 2 + 2 = 4.  No freewill in that. Reason and logic are possible not because we are free to think however we want but because we are not free. 

Reason makes slaves of us all.  Sam Harris


I guess it depends on how you understand freedom.

I don't understand freedom as the ability to break the laws of reality, or to control you own preferences.

Indeed I would argue that without reason, we would not be able to form concepts and come to understand how to work with nature. So that would mean we would be stuck foraging for our survival. Our base needs would occupy most of our energies.

We would be a slave to biological need.

Where as with reason we are able to raise our gaze to loftier endeavors and realize a higher potential. What that looks like will be tempered by our individual personalities and preferences.

That's freedom within the boundary of physics, but not outside it.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Online

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,249
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #59 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 4:07pm
Print Post  
TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 11:20am:
I guess it depends on how you understand freedom.

I don't understand freedom as the ability to break the laws of reality, or to control you own preferences.

Indeed I would argue that without reason, we would not be able to form concepts and come to understand how to work with nature. So that would mean we would be stuck foraging for our survival. Our base needs would occupy most of our energies.

We would be a slave to biological need.

Where as with reason we are able to raise our gaze to loftier endeavors and realize a higher potential. What that looks like will be tempered by our individual personalities and preferences.

That's freedom within the boundary of physics, but not outside it.


or to control you own preferences.

Why not?  That sentiment seems to encapsulate the problem of freewill and self. If your preferences are a fundamental part of what makes you, you.  Doesn't it make sense that we should be able to freely choose those preferences?

Sadly that's not how thoughts or desires or preferences occur.  They just happen.  No one can critically examine how a thought pops into their brain.  It would be like thinking of something before you think of it.  It's impossible to actually have a thought or idea before you have it.

The fact that we have developed reason and logic is proof of determinism.  Our brains and all the neurons and chemicals and energy all follow the same laws of physics that we know governs our reality.  Why would everything that we know, follow Newton's 3rd law except the mind?  Reason traps us, eliminating even the possibility of freewill.

You can not choose what your next thought will be, it was going to happen.  All you can do is witness it, record it, experience it.  We are not an experiencer in addition to the experience. We are probably all the same thing, no self, no individuals, no choice.
« Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2017 at 4:27pm by Nazi Hunter B.S.C. »  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 16
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules