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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread (Read 3,178 times)
Mojo-Jojo
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #60 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 5:33pm
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Every time I've read threads like this I always come to the same conclusion, fatalism. I hate it and want to find a path to "freewill" but if physics are valid, and they appear to be as we can accurately predict reaction from an action, then taken to its logical extreme, the wheels were set in motion a looong time ago and we're all pretending to drive.
  

For too long have we sat under the thumb of mankind! The time has come to *oppose* that thumb!

A nothing burger!
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #61 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 6:03pm
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Mojo-Jojo wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 5:33pm:
Every time I've read threads like this I always come to the same conclusion, fatalism. I hate it and want to find a path to "freewill" but if physics are valid, and they appear to be as we can accurately predict reaction from an action, then taken to its logical extreme, the wheels were set in motion a looong time ago and we're all pretending to drive.


How about the uncertainty principle?
  

Non sequitur:

The Hamster is at it Again wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #62 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 3:47am
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Mojo-Jojo wrote on Oct 12th, 2017 at 5:33pm:
Every time I've read threads like this I always come to the same conclusion, fatalism. I hate it and want to find a path to "freewill" but if physics are valid, and they appear to be as we can accurately predict reaction from an action, then taken to its logical extreme, the wheels were set in motion a looong time ago and we're all pretending to drive.


Even if we are bound to simply watch and observe our thoughts and actions, there can be something important about the experience.  The subjective portion of consciousness is just as valid as the objective part.

And please do not mistake Determinism for Fatalism. 

Your intentions, your efforts, your desires are just as causal and important as you think they are.  The Determinist says your thoughts are just as important and causal as the law of gravity.

The Fatalist says herp derp derpity derp derp. Whatever will be will be.  Bullshit. 

Effort does matter.  Intentions matter.  Could I become a blackbelt in kung fu without trying?  Can I just sit back and wait to see if I was destined to be a black belt?  Of course not. That would be absurd.  The casual effect of my effort to train and practice has a causal effect on the universe. 

« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2017 at 9:48am by Nazi Hunter B.S.C. »  

"Be Kind; Everyone You Meet is Fighting a Hard Battle" Plato
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #63 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 3:51am
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 3:47am:
Even if we are bound to simply watch and observe our thoughts and actions, there can be something important about the experience.  The subjective portion of consciousness is just as valid as the objective part.

And please do not mistake Determinism for Fatalism. 

Your intentions, your efforts, your desires are just as causal and important as you think they are.  The Determinist says your thoughts are just as important and casual as the law of gravity.

The Fatalist says herp derp derpity derp derp. Whatever will be will be.  Bullshit. 

Effort does matter.  Intentions matter.  Could I become a blackbelt in kung fu without trying?  Can I just sit back and wait to see if I was destined to be a black belt?  Of course not. That would be absurd.  The casual effect of my effort to train and practice has a causal effect on the universe. 



You amuse me. Let's leave your importance at that.
  
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #64 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 3:53am
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Do you own yourself?
  
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #65 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 3:57am
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Are you your own master? Do you determine where you will go? Do you matter?
  
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #66 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 3:59am
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When you get out of bed in the morning, do you decide to brush your teeth? Do you decide whether to eat breakfast or not? Do you decide to do your job?

Are you in charge?

If you aren't, who is?
  
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #67 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 4:20am
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Nazi Hunter B.S.C. wrote on Oct 10th, 2017 at 2:00pm:
I'll have to agree with TL and object, but I can see where you're going on that one, but it's probably misguided. 


No I doubt you can Smiley

There is no objective reality guys.  Because it can't be measured. 

We each have certain variables imprinted on our psyches by events in our lives. There is no such thing as an unbiased human.  We are limited by evolutionary biology. 

What is reality?  It's simply the sum total of human experiences.  If you guys want to get bare bone and simply define reality as the things that exist with no human present ... well then we're back to the age old "If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"  I answered that one for myself a loooong time ago.  No.  Because sound waves are just vibrations.  "Sound" is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain.  Nobody around to hear it?  No sound.  No humans around?  No reality.  I've always been very much aware that the perception of reality is far ... far ... FAR more important than reality whatever it may be. 

TowardLiberty wrote on Oct 11th, 2017 at 11:58am:
It seems like you are arguing that perception is reality. I say that because you have spent all your time arguing that perception is subjective, which is undeniable, but then for some reason this has been used as an argument for why reality itself is subjective too.

The only way that leap makes sense is if we collapse reality into perception.

And then all is mind.


Eeeeeyup. 

Sometimes my posting is construed as Trump support.  Or admiration.  In all honesty it's simply acknowledging a fellow traveler.

Reality is simply things we all agree to agree on.  Like we can all agree that a baseball bat is hard and it will hurt when it hits you in the head.  Can we agree on why it's hard?  Does it even matter?  Nope.  Only matters that we learn to avoid getting hit by it.

If you truly think there's an "objective" reality let's examine the very, very basic elements of the human condition and I'll ask a few questions and you guys can answer to pinpoint reality.  There's no reason to get deeply philosophical, objective reality should be easy right?  What could be more basic than being human?

1- Humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.  What is the appropriate nutritional diet for the human animal?  Have we figured it out yet?

2- Something I've only recently been exploring with amazing results ... when it comes to protection from the environment, why do we need to constantly invest millions in researching how to protect our feet from the hazards of human motion?  Are humans not designed for walking?  (I've just been having my mind blown lately by this one so wanted an excuse to insert it here)

3- Define male, then define female for me?

Queshank
  

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.

Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #68 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 4:22am
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It's harvest season.  I've been drafted to drive semi for the next month or so.  I'll try to lurk but my posting will be erratic or not at all.  My wife doesn't let me use my hour of free time every night for posting Smiley 

Queshank
  

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.

Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
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Re: The Illusion of Self, The Illusion of Freewill, The Allusion to Illusion Thread
Reply #69 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 4:23am
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Queshank wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 4:20am:
No I doubt you can Smiley

There is no objective reality guys.  Because it can't be measured. 

We each have certain variables imprinted on our psyches by events in our lives. There is no such thing as an unbiased human.  We are limited by evolutionary biology. 

What is reality?  It's simply the sum total of human experiences.  If you guys want to get bare bone and simply define reality as the things that exist with no human present ... well then we're back to the age old "If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"  I answered that one for myself a loooong time ago.  No.  Because sound waves are just vibrations.  "Sound" is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain.  Nobody around to hear it?  No sound.  No humans around?  No reality.  I've always been very much aware that the perception of reality is far ... far ... FAR more important than reality whatever it may be. 


Eeeeeyup. 

Sometimes my posting is construed as Trump support.  Or admiration.  In all honesty it's simply acknowledging a fellow traveler.

Reality is simply things we all agree to agree on.  Like we can all agree that a baseball bat is hard and it will hurt when it hits you in the head.  Can we agree on why it's hard?  Does it even matter?  Nope.  Only matters that we learn to avoid getting hit by it.

If you truly think there's an "objective" reality let's examine the very, very basic elements of the human condition and I'll ask a few questions and you guys can answer to pinpoint reality.  There's no reason to get deeply philosophical, objective reality should be easy right?  What could be more basic than being human?

1- Humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.  What is the appropriate nutritional diet for the human animal?  Have we figured it out yet?

2- Something I've only recently been exploring with amazing results ... when it comes to protection from the environment, why do we need to constantly invest millions in researching how to protect our feet from the hazards of human motion?  Are humans not designed for walking?  (I've just been having my mind blown lately by this one so wanted an excuse to insert it here)

3- Define male, then define female for me?

Queshank


Agreeing with everyone is easy.

Male is having an xy chromosome. Female is having an xx chromosome.

See how easy that is?
  
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