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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group (Read 1,763 times)
forgotten centrist
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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #30 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 4:55pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 4:43pm:
The anyone is our country, that is too late for us to respond.  You can not garantee to the citizens of this nation that we can absolutely shoot any and every missle he shoots out of the air.  That is insane, we are in a pickle to say the least but waiting till he shoots with dire consequences is pure insanity.


You can't guarantee that anyway.  Pakistan has the bomb -- the country that harbored bin laden for years.  They don't have missiles, but as I've pointed out before they don't need them.  Furthermore, the rogue elements within Pakistan who would be willing to use them are unencumbered by fear of retaliation -- a martyr's death suits them fine.

So why pre-emptively attack NK and not Pak?

And I remember the same "wipe em all out first" thought process was prevalent in Iraq.  We easily won that war but distinctly lost the peace along with a cool $2T.

And if you're talking about a pre-emptive attack without Chinese clearance, you're talking about a hot world war.  Bigly.

I'm really hoping cooler heads prevail here.
  

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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #31 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 4:57pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 4:43pm:
The anyone is our country, that is too late for us to respond.  You can not garantee to the citizens of this nation that we can absolutely shoot any and every missle he shoots out of the air.  That is insane, we are in a pickle to say the least but waiting till he shoots with dire consequences is pure insanity.


So, we should probably preempt Russia, the PRC, India, Pakistan and anyone else with the potential to strike us first?

The UK, France and Israel could potentially nuke us too so we should add them to our list.

I know, some here have itchy trigger fingers, but I always hesitate when it comes to cheering on violence (except for MMA of course, but combat sport is still sport) due to the fact that there's no backing down once combat has initiated. Wars become self-sustaining and the mission creeps.

Until he strikes, brinkmanship diplomacy is our only course short of war. Let me put it this way, We both lived under the very real possibility of nuclear holocaust up until the collapse of the USSR. During that time had we acted towards the USSR as we are NK, we'd all be dead. Time has a strange way of changing things. I'll stick to patience.



  

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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #32 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:13pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 4:55pm:
You can't guarantee that anyway.  Pakistan has the bomb -- the country that harbored bin laden for years.  They don't have missiles, but as I've pointed out before they don't need them.  Furthermore, the rogue elements within Pakistan who would be willing to use them are unencumbered by fear of retaliation -- a martyr's death suits them fine.

So why pre-emptively attack NK and not Pak?

And I remember the same "wipe em all out first" thought process was prevalent in Iraq.  We easily won that war but distinctly lost the peace along with a cool $2T.

And if you're talking about a pre-emptive attack without Chinese clearance, you're talking about a hot world war.  Bigly.

I'm really hoping cooler heads prevail here.

I agree that I hope cooler heads prevail but all of this rest solely on Kim.  Yet you can not wait to be shot to respond, there is no garunteee you will survive the shooting, that is not what this was originally about.  We went the route of enbargoes, diplomacy, payments and every one of these approaches failed us to prevent him from having nukes, so now we moved the goal posts to an insane strategy of waiting till we are shot.  That is not a rational approach to this and it moves the red line.  Unfortunately we now must show resolve and hope he understands that he has little hope of surviving if he continues down this suicidal appoach. This is not a rational man we are dealing with.  His father would go into hiding whenever he perceived a threat, this guy is telling us he still intends to nuke us.  There is nothing rational about this guy as you and I Understand.
  


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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #33 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:26pm
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Mojo-Jojo wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 4:57pm:
So, we should probably preempt Russia, the PRC, India, Pakistan and anyone else with the potential to strike us first?

The UK, France and Israel could potentially nuke us too so we should add them to our list.

I know, some here have itchy trigger fingers, but I always hesitate when it comes to cheering on violence (except for MMA of course, but combat sport is still sport) due to the fact that there's no backing down once combat has initiated. Wars become self-sustaining and the mission creeps.

Until he strikes, brinkmanship diplomacy is our only course short of war. Let me put it this way, We both lived under the very real possibility of nuclear holocaust up until the collapse of the USSR. During that time had we acted towards the USSR as we are NK, we'd all be dead. Time has a strange way of changing things. I'll stick to patience.




Patience!?  This is not a new crisis, this has been going on for decades and the goal was to PREVENT them from obtaining nukes by using your logic and it utterly failed.  Not sure what else we can do diplomatically that has not already been tried.  They are not Pakistan and no one has an itchy finger, we have demonstrated extreme patience, we no longer have any more room to allow them short of us being shot with nukes.  This man is by no means rational, so short of this act there are no other options but the threat of overwhelming force and pray he takes the threat seriously.  They are not Iraq, they are not Pakistan and they have openly told us they intend to destroy us and an ICBM validates our concern.  No one wants war and NOBODY wants to be on the receiving end of a nuke.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #34 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:27pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
I agree that I hope cooler heads prevail but all of this rest solely on Kim.  Yet you can not wait to be shot to respond, there is no garunteee you will survive the shooting, that is not what this was originally about.  We went the route of enbargoes, diplomacy, payments and every one of these approaches failed us to prevent him from having nukes, so now we moved the goal posts to an insane strategy of waiting till we are shot.  That is not a rational approach to this and it moves the red line.  Unfortunately we now must show resolve and hope he understands that he has little hope of surviving if he continues down this suicidal appoach. This is not a rational man we are dealing with.  His father would go into hiding whenever he perceived a threat, this guy is telling us he still intends to nuke us.  There is nothing rational about this guy as you and I Understand.


China is the key to a positive outcome. As we've seen, Kim is dumb enough to ignore Chinas warnings.

Russia and China knows and has told Kim the US will crush you one on one.

And I don't Trust Russia. They'll always take the side of who's against us.
They're Allies with NK and Iran. Like that doesn't say something.

  

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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #35 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:43pm
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JohnnyBgood wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:27pm:
China is the key to a positive outcome. As we've seen, Kim is dumb enough to ignore Chinas warnings.

Russia and China knows and has told Kim the US will crush you one on one.

And I don't Trust Russia. They'll always take the side of who's against us.
They're Allies with NK and Iran. Like that doesn't say something.


You are right, China is the key to all of this so I am hoping they can scare the crap out of this guy and reverse his intent.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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The Original Wally
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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #36 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:43pm
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JohnnyBgood wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:27pm:
China is the key to a positive outcome. As we've seen, Kim is dumb enough to ignore Chinas warnings.

Russia and China knows and has told Kim the US will crush you one on one.

And I don't Trust Russia. They'll always take the side of who's against us.
They're Allies with NK and Iran. Like that doesn't say something.


I agree with you about Russia; Putin is a Spy Master and an Cold Warrior of the Soviet Union.  He was a KGB Thug in Germany before the Berlin Wall came down and if you are family with the Stasi (East German Secret Police), as bad as they were, they took their orders through the Kremlin via the KGB.  (It's not for nothing that Putin's a Black Belt Martial Artist and weapons expert).  Putin wants to restore Russia power to that of the former Soviet Union and expand the Russian empire.  All that really stands in the way is the United States (and NATO).

Most of China's 1.3 Billion people live under a Marxist Dictatorship. Many fewer are engaged in their croany capitalism, which is a means to an end.  They will never become a free, democratic republic.  But for now, they are not as meanacing as Russia.

FatBoy is just a Jim Jones type Cult Leader.  This makes him unpredictable and very dangerous.  China could control his Daddy and Grandpa, but this guy's a loose cannon with nukes and developing ICBM's.  We are still technically at war with N. Korea, by the way. The Armistice which ended the Korean War was no more than a cease fire and an abandonment of S. Korea by the UN.
  

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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #37 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:48pm
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The Original Wally wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:43pm:
I agree with you about Russia; Putin is a Spy Master and an Cold Warrior of the Soviet Union.  He was a KGB Thug in Germany before the Berlin Wall came down and if you are family with the Stasi (East German Secret Police), as bad as they were, they took their orders through the Kremlin via the KGB.  (It's not for nothing that Putin's a Black Belt Martial Artist and weapons expert).  Putin wants to restore Russia power to that of the former Soviet Union and expand the Russian empire.  All that really stands in the way is the United States (and NATO).

Most of China's 1.3 Billion people live under a Marxist Dictatorship. Many fewer are engaged in their croany capitalism, which is a means to an end.  They will never become a free, democratic republic.  But for now, they are not as meanacing as Russia.

FatBoy is just a Jim Jones type Cult Leader.  This makes him unpredictable and very dangerous.  China could control his Daddy and Grandpa, but this guy's a loose cannon with nukes and developing ICBM's.  We are still technically at war with N. Korea, by the way. The Armistice which ended the Korean War was no more than a cease fire and an abandonment of S. Korea by the UN.

Very few people know we are still officially in a state of war with NK.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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The Original Wally
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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #38 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:51pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:48pm:
Very few people know we are still officially in a state of war with NK.

It just occurred to me that this means Trump doesn't need to go to congress to resume hostilities, since FatBoy has multiple breaches of the agreement and it is in our self defense!  Congress has kicked this can around for so many decades that I'm sure both sides of the aisle in both Houses are well aware of the President's authorization
  

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Re: Trump sending two more carriers to join Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group
Reply #39 - Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:54pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 18th, 2017 at 5:43pm:
You are right, China is the key to all of this so I am hoping they can scare the crap out of this guy and reverse his intent.

Not as long as Putin keeps rubbing his soldiers.
But I think Kim is dumb enough to turn his back and ignore China.
  

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