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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereEconomics, Financial News › On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin (Read 1,091 times)
Possumpoint
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #10 - Jun 4th, 2017 at 8:39pm
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 7:20pm:
We will not lose services.  The state will not go so easily.  Rather, in a truly systemic crisis the state will take control of services and rule by fiat.

And the workers and corporations will get paid with what, promises?
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #11 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 4:14pm
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Possumpoint wrote on Jun 4th, 2017 at 8:39pm:
And the workers and corporations will get paid with what, promises?

They can always pay in dollars, right?

BTW since we had this conversation last, Bitcoin has gone from 2000 dollars to around 4300 as of today.

That's an awesome return over a couple months time!
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #12 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 8:02pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 9th, 2017 at 4:14pm:
They can always pay in dollars, right?

BTW since we had this conversation last, Bitcoin has gone from 2000 dollars to around 4300 as of today.

That's an awesome return over a couple months time!


At one time, Tulips were doing better in Holland.


Edited later to add:
After posting the above, did some pointing and clicking.  Found this.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-bitcoin-price-20170905-sto...

And it mentions tulipmania, too. 

Still might be a good investment, and I hope you do well with it.  I am not going to participate in it or gold, though. 
« Last Edit: Sep 10th, 2017 at 8:11pm by EF »  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #13 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 11:09am
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EF wrote on Sep 10th, 2017 at 8:02pm:
At one time, Tulips were doing better in Holland.


Edited later to add:
After posting the above, did some pointing and clicking.  Found this.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-bitcoin-price-20170905-sto...

And it mentions tulipmania, too. 

Still might be a good investment, and I hope you do well with it.  I am not going to participate in it or gold, though. 

No doubt it could be a giant bubble. That's possible.

But it strikes me that bitcoin is filling a real need- ie is a real innovation.

But that's more a general statement about the idea, rather than a specific claim about any one coin or token. There are a bunch of tokens going up in value based purely on promises of some future product rollout. That does strike me as a bubbly.

Like all markets, you have to be savvy to make money in this space.

That said I do think this is the wave of the future. So it's a bit like the dot com bubble. There will be plenty of people who lose money buying shares of companies with dot com next to their name and little more. But a few of these companies will be the next big thing, like Amazon or eBay.


  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #14 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 2:19pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 11:09am:
No doubt it could be a giant bubble. That's possible.

But it strikes me that bitcoin is filling a real need- ie is a real innovation.

But that's more a general statement about the idea, rather than a specific claim about any one coin or token. There are a bunch of tokens going up in value based purely on promises of some future product rollout. That does strike me as a bubbly.

Like all markets, you have to be savvy to make money in this space.

That said I do think this is the wave of the future. So it's a bit like the dot com bubble. There will be plenty of people who lose money buying shares of companies with dot com next to their name and little more. But a few of these companies will be the next big thing, like Amazon or eBay.




But Amazon and eBay move goods and, I guess occasionally, services. They actually do something I can understand and relate to.  I still don't know exactly what bitcoin is or does, even after having it 'splained to me a few times.

You say it's fulfilling a "real need."  If you could tell me more about that need, maybe I could understand the solution better.
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #15 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 6:34pm
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EF wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 2:19pm:
But Amazon and eBay move goods and, I guess occasionally, services. They actually do something I can understand and relate to.  I still don't know exactly what bitcoin is or does, even after having it 'splained to me a few times.

You say it's fulfilling a "real need."  If you could tell me more about that need, maybe I could understand the solution better.


Bitcoin is to central banks what Uber is to taxi companies.

It is a source of disruption in a market based on exclusive privilege- on monopoly.

And like all monopolies, the money monopoly is an inferior product. It is inferior for many reasons, the main one being that it is constantly losing value. Fiat money is a poor store of value and that's a key component of what makes a good money.

Bitcoin is finite where fiat money is not.

And there is no Bitcoin monetary policy, which means it is not centrally planned.

Its operation follows market based principles.

The problem it solves is one of offering a substitute to an inferior money.

There is a lot to unpack in this brief answer. And a lot I am not touching on.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #16 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 1:23pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 6:34pm:
Bitcoin is to central banks what Uber is to taxi companies.

It is a source of disruption in a market based on exclusive privilege- on monopoly.

And like all monopolies, the money monopoly is an inferior product. It is inferior for many reasons, the main one being that it is constantly losing value. Fiat money is a poor store of value and that's a key component of what makes a good money.

Bitcoin is finite where fiat money is not.

And there is no Bitcoin monetary policy, which means it is not centrally planned.

Its operation follows market based principles.

The problem it solves is one of offering a substitute to an inferior money.

There is a lot to unpack in this brief answer. And a lot I am not touching on.


Except Uber transports people from point A to point B, providing a service just like that of taxi companies.  Bitcoin still, best I can tell, does nothing and is nothing, yet it has a value that fluctuates.  I just don't see how it offers a "substitute to an inferior money" in that I don't see how it will ever circulate as money.  Money is a way of assigning relative values to goods and services.  Bitcoin is neither a good nor a service, best I can tell.

I suspect you can save yourself the trouble of unpacking anything more, at least for my benefit.  I am hopelessly lost when it comes to bitcoin.
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #17 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:27pm
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EF wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 1:23pm:
Except Uber transports people from point A to point B, providing a service just like that of taxi companies.  Bitcoin still, best I can tell, does nothing and is nothing, yet it has a value that fluctuates. 


Well, it mediates exchanges right now. People do use it as a way to buy things.

It's also based on a technology that enables public and secure clearing and accounting services, not to mention the execution of smart contracts.

Quote:
I just don't see how it offers a "substitute to an inferior money" in that I don't see how it will ever circulate as money.  Money is a way of assigning relative values to goods and services.  Bitcoin is neither a good nor a service, best I can tell.


Things are priced in Bitcoins today, as we speak. It's not ubiqitous but it does exist.

You can find a Bitcoin price for any item or service in the world by finding it's dollar price and then converting into BTC values.

So it is fulfilling the role you say a money fills- which is to enable money prices for goods and services.

Bitcoin actually is a good, as much as any useful combination of computer code can be considered a good. Just as much as Windows 98 is a good, so is Bitcoin.

I would point out that fiat money is neither a good nor a service.

Quote:
I suspect you can save yourself the trouble of unpacking anything more, at least for my benefit.  I am hopelessly lost when it comes to bitcoin. 


From what I can gather this almost seems to be something you have chosen. There is no reason you can't understand Bitcoin. It's not really that complicated at the concept level.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #18 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:31pm
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With that said there are technical reason why Bitcoin proper might not be able to circulate as a commonly held medium of exchange.

But these technical limits have been overcome by other alternative coins, such Bitcoin Cash, and Dash, not to mention many many others.

These issues deal with block size and scalability.

Bitcoin proper is already a clunky, slow and expensive way to send to money. It's a legacy crypto currency and we can probably expect to see it lose dominance to these newer and more efficient forms.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #19 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:04pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:31pm:
With that said there are technical reason why Bitcoin proper might not be able to circulate as a commonly held medium of exchange.

But these technical limits have been overcome by other alternative coins, such Bitcoin Cash, and Dash, not to mention many many others.

These issues deal with block size and scalability.

Bitcoin proper is already a clunky, slow and expensive way to send to money. It's a legacy crypto currency and we can probably expect to see it lose dominance to these newer and more efficient forms.


Well, okay, but one thing I did learn from Warren Buffet - if you can't understand the business model of something, don't invest in it.  And i just can't understand the business model for bitcoin or any other "alternative coins."  Could be by subconcious choice.  Nevertheless, that's the way it is.
  

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