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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereEconomics, Financial News › On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin (Read 662 times)
EF
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #20 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:07pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 4:27pm:
Well, it mediates exchanges right now. People do use it as a way to buy things.

It's also based on a technology that enables public and secure clearing and accounting services, not to mention the execution of smart contracts.


Things are priced in Bitcoins today, as we speak. It's not ubiqitous but it does exist.

You can find a Bitcoin price for any item or service in the world by finding it's dollar price and then converting into BTC values.

So it is fulfilling the role you say a money fills- which is to enable money prices for goods and services.

Bitcoin actually is a good, as much as any useful combination of computer code can be considered a good. Just as much as Windows 98 is a good, so is Bitcoin.

I would point out that fiat money is neither a good nor a service.


From what I can gather this almost seems to be something you have chosen. There is no reason you can't understand Bitcoin. It's not really that complicated at the concept level.


I know that.  But fiat money is a means of assigning relative values to goods and service.  Bitcoin seems to be a new sort of fiat money whose value is determined in relation to other fiat monies.  IOW, the "value" of fiat money Bitcoin fluctuates and is expressed in amounts of other fiat money.

Doesn't that seem kind of silly?
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #21 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:59pm
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EF wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:07pm:
I know that.  But fiat money is a means of assigning relative values to goods and service.  Bitcoin seems to be a new sort of fiat money whose value is determined in relation to other fiat monies.  IOW, the "value" of fiat money Bitcoin fluctuates and is expressed in amounts of other fiat money.

Doesn't that seem kind of silly?


Bitcoin is not fiat money because there is no government decree.

And I just explained how Bitcoin is assigning relative values to goods and services. (actually Bitcoin is just a medium of exchange and the prices formed by its use are not assigned but rather emerge through exchange. this is all to say that money does not assign values, people do through their buying and selling).
« Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2017 at 12:13pm by TowardLiberty »  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #22 - Sep 12th, 2017 at 10:06pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 9:59pm:
Bitcoin is not fiat money because there is no government decree.

And I just explained how Bitcoin is assigning relative values to goods and services. (actually Bitcoin is just a medium of exchange and the prices formed by its use are not assigned but rather emerge through the exchanges. this is all to say that money does not assign values, people do through their buying and selling).


My bad.  I was using the term fiat money in the sense that it's not a commodity like gold, silver, fur, or something that users perceive to have value. 

So it's neither fiat nor commodity money.  It's "cyberstuff."

I realize people assign relative values and use money to denominate those relative values.  Usually fiat money.  And it's fiat money that is used to express the fluctuating value of bitcoin, which, while it may be "money," is neither money by fiat (decree) nor money by being a valuable commodity.

I guess if I could have a roll of bitcoin to heft in my fist it might all make more sense.  Mostly it seems to be a real asset in enabling computer data hijacking.  So it does have a niche.

« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2017 at 10:12pm by EF »  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #23 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 12:05pm
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EF wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 10:06pm:
My bad.  I was using the term fiat money in the sense that it's not a commodity like gold, silver, fur, or something that users perceive to have value. 

So it's neither fiat nor commodity money.  It's "cyberstuff."


Well its true that Bitcoin is not redeemable in anything else, so in that sense it is "unbacked."

But it's also true that all value is something perceived rather than intrinsic. Often times gold bugs have argued that gold has intrinsic value, which is wrong.

Like Bitcoin or fiat money, gold is not intrinsically valuable. Value is subjective and all that.

But unlike fiat money and gold, Bitcoin comes with it's own accounting system - it's own payments or clearing system. And that is something fiat money and gold just do not have. They require these central points of exchange called banks which keep account of who owns what.

Bitcoin does that on it's own- the process is internal to the money itself. And it is accomplished in a distributed fashion, without you needing to trust any person or institution.

So this is to say that this blockchain ledger technology is the reason for Bitcoins value. This is why people perceive Bitcoin to be valuable in a way that gold cannot be.

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I realize people assign relative values and use money to denominate those relative values.  Usually fiat money.  And it's fiat money that is used to express the fluctuating value of bitcoin, which, while it may be "money," is neither money by fiat (decree) nor money by being a valuable commodity.


Well other than Bitcoin, say for Monero or Dash, or what have you, these currencies are valued in something other than fiat money. They are valued in Bitcoin itself.

So you can track the movement of Monero in dollars or BTC.

But it is true that BTC itself is valued in terms of fiat money- that's owing to the fact that fiat money is the dominant monetary system in our world.

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I guess if I could have a roll of bitcoin to heft in my fist it might all make more sense.  Mostly it seems to be a real asset in enabling computer data hijacking.  So it does have a niche.



Would you say that about Windows XP? Ie that it doesn't make sense unless you can hold the code in your hand?

I have never heard about Bitcoin enabling computer data hijacking. What are you referring to?
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #24 - Sep 15th, 2017 at 2:54pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 13th, 2017 at 12:05pm:
Would you say that about Windows XP? Ie that it doesn't make sense unless you can hold the code in your hand?

I have never heard about Bitcoin enabling computer data hijacking. What are you referring to?


No, but I can do stuff with XP code.  Bitcoin doesn't DO anything.

What I am referring to is the anonymity of Bitcoin makes paying ransom very easy. 
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #25 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 1:37pm
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EF wrote on Sep 15th, 2017 at 2:54pm:
No, but I can do stuff with XP code.  Bitcoin doesn't DO anything.


Sure it does.

It's built on the blockchain. And that validates and verifies data and exchanges, in a distributed and public ledger that makes it impossible to commit fraud.

That's doing something that no other money does today.

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What I am referring to is the anonymity of Bitcoin makes paying ransom very easy. 

Bitcoin is transparently public. Nothing is anonymous. You must be thinking of Monero, or perhaps Dash.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #26 - Sep 17th, 2017 at 11:09am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 16th, 2017 at 1:37pm:
Sure it does.

It's built on the blockchain. And that validates and verifies data and exchanges, in a distributed and public ledger that makes it impossible to commit fraud.

That's doing something that no other money does today.

Bitcoin is transparently public. Nothing is anonymous. You must be thinking of Monero, or perhaps Dash.


http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/2017/08/08/hbo-hackers-want-bitcoin-ra...

May you and bitcoin live happily ever after.  I'll pass for now.
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #27 - Sep 17th, 2017 at 11:46am
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EF wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 11:09am:


Are you saying that this is the purpose of Bitcoin? To hack people?

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May you and bitcoin live happily ever after.  I'll pass for now.

That's cool just make sure you are passing with information rather than without!
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #28 - Sep 17th, 2017 at 8:14pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 11:46am:
Are you saying that this is the purpose of Bitcoin? To hack people?

That's cool just make sure you are passing with information rather than without!


No, I was addressing your comment that it's "transparently public" which was made in response to my comment that it has helped with computer hacking.  I still can't see that Bitcoin does anything any better than something we already had and the more I read about what it is, the less I understand it.  I am thinking Tuliplmania is an apt comparison.
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #29 - Sep 19th, 2017 at 1:01pm
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EF wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 8:14pm:
No, I was addressing your comment that it's "transparently public" which was made in response to my comment that it has helped with computer hacking.  I still can't see that Bitcoin does anything any better than something we already had and the more I read about what it is, the less I understand it.  I am thinking Tuliplmania is an apt comparison.


This guy seems to think so, too.  Others don't.  Time will tell.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/bitcoin-is-in-a-bubble-and-heres-how-its-going-t...

And he knows what a collapse looks like, having presided over one apparently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Insana
  

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