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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereEconomics, Financial News › On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin (Read 3,587 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #50 - Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:26pm
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lol

  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #51 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 10:58am
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Wheee!

Quote:
Bitcoin’s plunge extended to almost 30 percent Friday as the frenzy surrounding digital currencies faced one of its biggest tests yet.

The world’s largest cryptocurrency approached $10,000 as this week’s selloff entered a fourth day with increasing momentum. It touched a record high $19,511 on Monday. Other cryptocurrencies also tumbled, ethereum dropped as much as 36 percent and litecoin slumped as much as 43 percent, according to composite prices on Bloomberg.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-22/bitcoin-plummets-toward-13-00...
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #52 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 12:16pm
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MJ wrote on Dec 22nd, 2017 at 10:58am:

Yup. Firesale prices.

This is where the weak hands fold and the hodlers buy.

A 25-30% drop in prices is common in this space. And when it passes history suggests we will blow past 19K to an all new high.
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #53 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 8:22pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 22nd, 2017 at 12:16pm:
Yup. Firesale prices.

This is where the weak hands fold and the hodlers buy.

A 25-30% drop in prices is common in this space. And when it passes history suggests we will blow past 19K to an all new high.


I hope you're right.  It's still WAY up even with this "crash."  I can't help but think people might be beginning to wonder what it is that makes this stuff valuable.  I know it's demand, but why?  You've already tried to 'splain so don't bother again.
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #54 - Dec 23rd, 2017 at 2:14pm
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EF wrote on Dec 22nd, 2017 at 8:22pm:
I hope you're right.  It's still WAY up even with this "crash."  I can't help but think people might be beginning to wonder what it is that makes this stuff valuable.  I know it's demand, but why?  You've already tried to 'splain so don't bother again.

I really can't imagine someone asking this question with all that has been said.

You might as well ask what makes Visa or Mastercard valuable.
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #55 - Dec 26th, 2017 at 11:43am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 23rd, 2017 at 2:14pm:
I really can't imagine someone asking this question with all that has been said.

You might as well ask what makes Visa or Mastercard valuable.


With all due respect, gross analogy fail IMO.  Visa and Mastercard do not present themselves as currency.  They're just ways to borrow currency to buy stuff.  They create a debt that must be repaid, with interest (unless paid off in full), using currency. 

Bitcoin, best I can tell, is more analagous to precious metal, having a value in its own right as well as having a use as "money." But unlike gold and silver and brass and nickel and any other precious or semi precious metal, all of which have uses other than as money and are naturally scare, bitcoin has no substance, no use whatsoever beyond its use as "money" or "store of value," and its scarcity is artificially created.  Its current value seems way too high and volatile, and its ease of use way too cumbersome, to be of much use as money.  And it only exists, if it has any existence at all, in digital format. 
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #56 - Dec 26th, 2017 at 5:01pm
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EF wrote on Dec 26th, 2017 at 11:43am:
With all due respect, gross analogy fail IMO.  Visa and Mastercard do not present themselves as currency.  They're just ways to borrow currency to buy stuff.  They create a debt that must be repaid, with interest (unless paid off in full), using currency. 


Okay sure but they are a payment service that you pay a fee to use.

And crypto currency is the same thing. And with many of them the fees are minuscule and there is no interest involved. And on top of that if you don't spend the credits, they tend to go up in value, not down.

Visa and MasterCard make millions doing this. So being able to do the same thing through a distributed and permission-less system is a massive innovation.

Quote:
Bitcoin, best I can tell, is more analagous to precious metal, having a value in its own right as well as having a use as "money."



I would agree.

Quote:
But unlike gold and silver and brass and nickel and any other precious or semi precious metal, all of which have uses other than as money and are naturally scare, bitcoin has no substance, no use whatsoever beyond its use as "money" or "store of value," and its scarcity is artificially created. 


They do have other uses. It is being used for smart contracts, identification, storing information of any kind, hosting marketplaces, and applications involving AI and medicine are being actively researched.

This is all common knowledge in the crypto space. Money is just one of the realms blockchain technology is going to make an impact.

As far the scarcity being artificial that is a feature not a bug. When you have a form of money that can be arbitrarily created, you have a bad form of money. That's another reason Bitcoin and the other alts have a value beyond dollars. Quote:
Its current value seems way too high and volatile, and its ease of use way too cumbersome, to be of much use as money.  And it only exists, if it has any existence at all, in digital format. 

Right now it is a digital financial asset that people are speculating might be widely viewed as money sometime in the future. We shall see how that plays out. But regardless of whether it is Bitcoin, Monero, Dash, or what have you, I think we can all be reasonably sure we are seeing the future of money.

And wouldn't you agree that this would be a wonderful thing if it indeed plays out that way? If crypto entrepreneurship wrestled control of money from the clumsy hands of bureaucrats and turned it over the people, wouldn't that be a positive change?
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #57 - Dec 27th, 2017 at 11:45am
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Articles on bitcoin to make one's head hurt:


http://theweek.com/articles/744889/when-bitcoin-craze-becomes-panic?utm_campaign...

https://www.ybrikman.com/writing/2014/04/24/bitcoin-by-analogy/

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/bitcoin-uses-more-energy-than-irela...

Relevant excerpt from the last one:
The Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index tracker puts Bitcoin’s current estimated annual energy use at almost 32 terawatt-hours, roughly equivalent to Serbia’s yearly electricity consumption and ahead of at least 159 other countries, including Ireland and most nations in Africa.
Each Bitcoin transaction is estimated to require the same energy as 4,000 Visa card transactions, said Francois Sonnet, co-founder of the energy generation data project ElectriCChain.
And Power Compare, a U.K. utility pricing comparison site, noted that Bitcoin energy consumption had risen by almost 30 percent in the last month. Based on that rate of growth, Bitcoin electricity consumption will overtake the U.S. by July 2019 and the world by 2020.   
The cryptocurrency industry is considering moves to adopt more energy-efficient business models amid concerns that the current method of mining coins could endanger the planet.
(emphasis added)

Cryptocurrency is, indeed, cryptic.
  

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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #58 - Dec 27th, 2017 at 11:47am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 26th, 2017 at 5:01pm:
Okay sure but they are a payment service that you pay a fee to use.

And crypto currency is the same thing. And with many of them the fees are minuscule and there is no interest involved. And on top of that if you don't spend the credits, they tend to go up in value, not down.

Visa and MasterCard make millions doing this. So being able to do the same thing through a distributed and permission-less system is a massive innovation.


I would agree.


They do have other uses. It is being used for smart contracts, identification, storing information of any kind, hosting marketplaces, and applications involving AI and medicine are being actively researched.

This is all common knowledge in the crypto space. Money is just one of the realms blockchain technology is going to make an impact.

As far the scarcity being artificial that is a feature not a bug. When you have a form of money that can be arbitrarily created, you have a bad form of money. That's another reason Bitcoin and the other alts have a value beyond dollars.
Right now it is a digital financial asset that people are speculating might be widely viewed as money sometime in the future. We shall see how that plays out. But regardless of whether it is Bitcoin, Monero, Dash, or what have you, I think we can all be reasonably sure we are seeing the future of money.

And wouldn't you agree that this would be a wonderful thing if it indeed plays out that way? If crypto entrepreneurship wrestled control of money from the clumsy hands of bureaucrats and turned it over the people, wouldn't that be a positive change?


I don't know.  We managed to inject more popular voting into selection of a president despite our founders wisdom in trying to prevent it and look what just happened.  If we still selected candidates by party conventions rather than popular votes in primaries, I don't think we'd have this clown in the white house.
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: On Gold, Dollars, & Bitcoin
Reply #59 - Dec 27th, 2017 at 1:16pm
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EF wrote on Dec 27th, 2017 at 11:47am:
I don't know.  We managed to inject more popular voting into selection of a president despite our founders wisdom in trying to prevent it and look what just happened.  If we still selected candidates by party conventions rather than popular votes in primaries, I don't think we'd have this clown in the white house.

Well let me say this. If you don't see the value in freeing money up from centralized control, you will never understand why people value Bitcoin.

It will forever remain an enigma.
  

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