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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Odds of Evolution Are Zero. (Read 10,467 times)
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #180 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 8:52pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
I believe I said they pray to saints and the Bible is very, very clear that there is ONLY one name in which we can approach God by, and that is Jesus Christ, not saint Mary.  No other name is mentioned as a go between other then his son.  Do you understand why?

  The purpose of reading scripture DAILY is to know God, not hearsay, not religious practices but to know God.  It is why we are challenged to do so independently by the guidance of God's Holy Spirit.  Men WILL deceive you, I don't care if it's the Pope, Calvin, Luther...  It is why David wrote in Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. 

The best way to approach scripture is to imagine that you live on an island never having been exposed to Christianity and you read the Bible the very first time.  How would you interpret it outside of the influence of men?


That's interesting.

However,  it's an exercise in imagination because we're brought up in a Christian or post -Christian society.


I for one would have to work hard on eliminating influences.... 


In this exercise, do we disregard our knowledge of history too, or only the influence of religious instruction?
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #181 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 9:16pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 7:55pm:
I honestly would have read it if it was in the Bible but I am interested in what they use to justify the Pope. 

If you'll read the link here you go:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM

Scripture references are in the footnotes.
  
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #182 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 9:26pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
I believe I said they pray to saints and the Bible is very, very clear that there is ONLY one name in which we can approach God by, and that is Jesus Christ, not saint Mary.

And you're wrong. Catholics don't pray in the name of Mary or any other saints (that is not Catholic doctrine). They don't pray to saints.

As has already been explained to you, Catholics ask the saints (both those in heaven and those on earth, i.e., the members of the church) to pray for them. Just as you would ask members of your church to pray for you. The fact that some are already in presence of God doesn't mean you can't ask them to pray for you. 

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No other name is mentioned as a go between other then his son. 

Do you understand the Catholic position is exactly this?
  
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #183 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 9:40pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:58pm:
Regarding hell, I already linked you several verses that reveal that Jesus is describing hell.


Jesus does talk about Hell, just not in Matthew 7.  There, he talks about the broad way leading to destruction.  Destruction isn't Hell, as is clear from the context  - no one is talking about "where people go when they die" - and the use of a different word in the Greek.

It's not clear exactly what Jesus means, but here are several better interpretations:

1. He is talking about life after death, but he means literal destruction: the cessation of existence.  I don't think this is a very good interpretation, but it's better than interpreting destruction as Hell.

2. By apoleia, he means "waste", as apoleia is translated from time to time.  In this case, he would mean that most people - the ones who don't heed his advice in the Sermon on the Mount - are wasting themselves when they could be alive.  This seems the most likely interpretation.

3. By destruction, he means a spiritual calamity of some unspecified sort.

4. These verses were inserted by St. Matthew.  The Gospel of Matthew was written during the Siege of Jerusalem (ca. 70 AD) to convince Jews to turn to Jesus as Messiah, who would deliver them from the Roman army.  Here, St. Matthew is inventing a teaching of Jesus that those who follow him and his way will have life, and the rest will be chewed up by the Empire.  This is the way to understand other portions of the Gospel of Matthew, and it's only slightly less likely than the "waste" interpretation.

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Destruction?  2 Thess 1:9 talks about everlasting DESTRUCTION.


Your view of Hell isn't destruction, though.  Hell is everlasting torture.  Destruction implies cessation; that is, II Thessalonians is better interpreted as an argument for annihilationism, that the soul does not live on after death.

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The problem you have is your ego, you spend too much time attempting to talk down to me and ZERO time supporting your case.


DELETED

You made great points and then you do what you always do, insult.  There is a lack of maturity on your part in which you simply can't overcome.  I have asked you to keep it off the forum and you persist so I will delete.  I don't keep score, I try not to insult and I do honestly seek a conversation. You seem obsessed with making every post personal.  I don't give a rats butt about your personal score, or your misconceived perceptions.  I do not understand why it is almost impossible to be above the fray but you have no self-control and want every conversation to be personal.  Control the behavior or I will.
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2017 at 6:32am by Seawolf »  

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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #184 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:35pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 5th, 2017 at 10:19pm:
Luke 16:19-31 Here Jesus tells us the story of Lazarus, many scholars believe this to be a true story, of the rich man who went to hell and begged to warn his family.


Sentence A: "Matthew 7 does not discuss Hell."
Sentence B: "The Bible does not discuss Hell."

Do you understand that these sentences mean different things?  I ask because, when I said Sentence A, you immediately ran off for other verses as if I said Sentence B.  Do you understand that these Sentences are different and that I never said Sentence B?

As for Lazarus and the rich man, this is the most misunderstood passage in the Bible.  Hell is a metaphor for spiritual calamity, not a place where people actually go when they die.  Lazarus is a Gentile; the rich man is a Jew.  The story of Lazarus and the rich man is about how the blessings of the Jewish god passed from the Jews to the Christian Gentiles.

It would take nearly a book to explain this in detail, but here's the gist.  Christianity began as a Jewish sect but very early became overrun with Gentiles, and by the middle of the second century, Christianity had become almost entirely Gentile.  Christian Gentiles and Jews both laid claim to the promises of the Old Testament and to the true worship of the God of Abraham.  And it got very nasty very quick.

Note that Lazarus does not go to Heaven, he goes to Abraham's bosom.  He is closest to the founder of Judaism, while the rich man suffers in Hell.  The rich man cries out to Abraham, but note carefully that Abraham never says the rich man did anything wrong.  "You enjoyed the good things in your life, now Lazarus enjoys the good things."

The rich man begs Abraham to save the rich man's brothers.  Does Abraham say that the rich man's brothers should believe in Jesus or ask Jesus into their hearts?  Nope, he says that they should listen to the Law and the Prophets, which is a fancy way of saying the Old Testament.

The rich man asks for someone to rise from the dead and be sent, and Abraham says that if they don't believe the Old Testament, they won't believe someone who's been resurrected.  This is clearly a reference to the rejection of Jesus's resurrection by the vast majority of Jews at the time.

Note that this story doesn't line up with the evangelical story of Hell at all.  The rich man is in Hell but isn't being punished for his sins.  Lazarus doesn't believe in Jesus and isn't in Heaven.  The rich man's relatives don't need to believe in Jesus or ask him into their hearts; they'll be fine if they listen to the Old Testament.  None of this lines up with the evangelical teaching that you need to believe in Jesus to stay out of Hell.

It makes much more sense to view this as a story about the reversal of spiritual fortunes between the Jews and Gentiles and to treat Hell as spiritual suffering, not an actual place where people literally go when they die.  This is a rah-rah passage for Christian Gentiles looking to find something to rub in the faces of their Jewish opponents.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #185 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:42pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
The best way to approach scripture is to imagine that you live on an island never having been exposed to Christianity and you read the Bible the very first time.


That is the absolute stupidest way to approach reading the Bible.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #186 - Jul 7th, 2017 at 12:51am
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 8:01pm:
The best way to approach scripture is to imagine that you live on an island never having been exposed to Christianity and you read the Bible the very first time. 


Huh? So the second time you read a passage, you are to have
learned nothing from the first time, and the third time you read
that same passage, you are to have learned nothing from the second?

That sure does explain a lot of what passes for Biblical scholarship.

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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #187 - Jul 7th, 2017 at 6:37am
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Running Deer wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:42pm:
That is the absolute stupidest way to approach reading the Bible.

Here is your issue, you never ask questions, you assume and then build your argument off an assumption and then thump your chest.  It makes perfect sense if you can avoid man's interpretation and attempt to interpret scripture yourself.  Obviously there is information you need to understand the culture and the event but doctrine contrived by men, for example Oneness vs. Trinity.  Neither are discussed and neither description is in the Bible and yet this doctrine is a thorn for many believers.  Yet the Bible speaks about the Godhead.  IS your salvation based on knowing and understanding this mystery?  I say no because Jesus was not fixated on this message, but we are.  That is one example, there are many others regarding doctrine that we obsess over that has no relevance to your salvation.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #188 - Jul 7th, 2017 at 6:54am
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Running Deer wrote on Jul 6th, 2017 at 11:35pm:
Sentence A: "Matthew 7 does not discuss Hell."
Sentence B: "The Bible does not discuss Hell."

Do you understand that these sentences mean different things?  I ask because, when I said Sentence A, you immediately ran off for other verses as if I said Sentence B.  Do you understand that these Sentences are different and that I never said Sentence B?

As for Lazarus and the rich man, this is the most misunderstood passage in the Bible.  Hell is a metaphor for spiritual calamity, not a place where people actually go when they die.  Lazarus is a Gentile; the rich man is a Jew.  The story of Lazarus and the rich man is about how the blessings of the Jewish god passed from the Jews to the Christian Gentiles.

It would take nearly a book to explain this in detail, but here's the gist.  Christianity began as a Jewish sect but very early became overrun with Gentiles, and by the middle of the second century, Christianity had become almost entirely Gentile.  Christian Gentiles and Jews both laid claim to the promises of the Old Testament and to the true worship of the God of Abraham.  And it got very nasty very quick.

Note that Lazarus does not go to Heaven, he goes to Abraham's bosom.  He is closest to the founder of Judaism, while the rich man suffers in Hell.  The rich man cries out to Abraham, but note carefully that Abraham never says the rich man did anything wrong.  "You enjoyed the good things in your life, now Lazarus enjoys the good things."

The rich man begs Abraham to save the rich man's brothers.  Does Abraham say that the rich man's brothers should believe in Jesus or ask Jesus into their hearts?  Nope, he says that they should listen to the Law and the Prophets, which is a fancy way of saying the Old Testament.

The rich man asks for someone to rise from the dead and be sent, and Abraham says that if they don't believe the Old Testament, they won't believe someone who's been resurrected.  This is clearly a reference to the rejection of Jesus's resurrection by the vast majority of Jews at the time.

Note that this story doesn't line up with the evangelical story of Hell at all.  The rich man is in Hell but isn't being punished for his sins.  Lazarus doesn't believe in Jesus and isn't in Heaven.  The rich man's relatives don't need to believe in Jesus or ask him into their hearts; they'll be fine if they listen to the Old Testament.  None of this lines up with the evangelical teaching that you need to believe in Jesus to stay out of Hell.

It makes much more sense to view this as a story about the reversal of spiritual fortunes between the Jews and Gentiles and to treat Hell as spiritual suffering, not an actual place where people literally go when they die.  This is a rah-rah passage for Christian Gentiles looking to find something to rub in the faces of their Jewish opponents.

A total or near total misrepresentation of the story.  You got the bossom of Abraham right and then everything else falls apart.  Need more time and I don't have it.  Here is what is taught by many scholars and Pastors in my next posts and no, I am not keeping score.  According to scripture of entering Abraham's bossom is a fact, we had yet to be redeemed by Christ's blood.  He had yet died at the telling of this story.
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2017 at 7:27am by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #189 - Jul 7th, 2017 at 6:55am
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14. The Rich Man and Lazarus
The Passage:
Luke 16:19-31
The Parameters:

Jesus had just given a parable about wealth and taught that you cannot serve both God and money. The Pharisees were lovers of money (Luke 16:14) and scoffed at Jesus. So He tells them another parable about trusting in money. He even begins it the same way he began the last parable - with the phrase, there was a certain rich man...

Jesus had also taught that while the Pharisees looked at the outside, God looks at the heart. (Luke 6:15)

Jesus made a comment in verse 16 about the law and the prophets being proclaimed until John.

Although most people think of future things when they think of the prophets, what the prophets primarily did was condemn Israel for oppressing the innocent and the poor. They proclaimed the importance of loving ones neighbor. This parable will portray one who does not do that.

Jesus also says he is preaching the gospel of the kingdom and makes a comment that everyone is forcing his way into it. This means that everyone is trying to get in. What we will see is examples of someone who gets in and someone who doesn’t. Jesus condemns the wrongful love of money in the Pharisees who thought that riches were synonymous with righteousness.
The Problem

We always talk about the attitude and question that Jesus is dealing with in his parables. In this one the attitude he is dealing with is the Pharisees attitude towards their wealth. They thought wealth was a sign of spirituality and blessing from God. They also thought that poverty was a result of sinfulness and cursing from God. They were sure that poor people were not going to go to heaven.

What is Gods attitude towards the Pharisees who were devoted to money and took great pride that they had it? Would they enter the kingdom of God? What does it take to enter the kingdom (i.e. go to heaven)?

https://bible.org/seriespage/14-rich-man-and-lazarus
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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