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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Odds of Evolution Are Zero. (Read 4,064 times)
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #200 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 6:23am
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BowHunter wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 1:00am:
How about "out of nothing comes a super magical being"? According to someone's logic that should require a bigger faith, much bigger.

Someone is going to be right in the end of all of this we call life. Science has yet to tell us or even show us how life creates itself out of nothing.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #201 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 6:25am
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Fiddler wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 11:24pm:
"Out of nothing comes life" doesn't require 'faith'.. it simply requires exploration.. 

There is no question that mankind will solve the secret of life exactly in the same manner as we now dissect the atom, walk in space or disassemble genes and reorder them with intent.

It is not a barrier that can not be broken..

In fact... You'll probably live long enough to deny the accomplishment..


We will see will we not?  You may find yourself in the end before the Creator.  Two possible scenarios.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #202 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 10:51am
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Fiddler wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:43pm:
Creationism indeed does require one to suspend one's critical thinking skills.. That's why it's called 'Faith' in a creator.  Faith being belief in spite of the lack of evidence.

Evolution simply requires an examination of the evidence..





And a good bit of faith that something can spring from nothing (which sounds like a "supernatural" event to me) absent a supernatural cause (whom I refer to as "the Creator").

But actually evolution is accepted by some Creationists as the way God created.  Even after all the evidence is examined, there still remains a dearth of "transitional" fossils.  Not that I follow that kind of thing all the closely, mind you.  And I have read of the "Cambrian explosion" (I think that's the right term).  The term "explosion" makes it sound like it was all of a sudden, but it did cover millions of years, which is kind of "sudden" when one is talking a time span of billions upon billions, I suppose.  Evolution is, I would think (and I think most scientists do, too) a gradual, more or less evenly spaced process. 

I have  had discussions with others about the Big Bang theory.  About that "singularity" of "infinite density" that exploded, hurling matter, space, and time into a nothing that is neither matter, space, nor time.  They have said they can explain everything down to the moment of the explosion without invoking a Creator.  I say great, I can explain a little bit further back by invoking one. 

So from where did that singularity come if not from a Creator?  I know that begs the question from where did the Creator come?  But the Creator exists outside of time and space. A supernatural being that always was is easier to swallow than a "singularity of infinite density" that always was.  (And even using the term "always" implies time.  But time is a created thing, too.)

Under the Big Bang theory, time and space came into being at the moment of explosion.  Matter, I guess, including dark matter, already existed in the singularity of infinite density.  We know the moment of creation of time and space.  What we don't know is the moment of creation of that "singularity of infinite density." 

Thinking it just was seems more of a stretch to me than thinking it was created by an infinite Creator.  And history (as well as the Book, which contains a lot of history) says intelligent beings have long recognized the existence of a Creator simply from the fact of existence of all this stuff, both animate and inanimate.  That such a Creator would have to reveal Himself to us rather than us stumbling upon Him in our efforts to find Him makes perfect sense to me. 

Whether Jesus is His Son and the redeemer is another discussion, though.  I believe He is.  But even if He is not, and I (and many others) have been misled into believing He is, it seems to me there must be a Creator.

I hope this kind of cogitating is useful in delaying the onset of dementia! 
« Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2017 at 11:00am by Elmer Fudd »  

non sumus stulti
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #203 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 6:28pm
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I honestly don't think it matters.

The beginning of everything happened,  and over the last,  what, 100 years or so science has come up with some pretty compelling descriptions of it. No explanation as such.

A "how and what and when" not a "who and why".

I risk sliding in to Deist territory here. Catch me if I fall.

Assume a supernatural creator,  or correctly a Creator.

OK.  We have a universe to play in, and science can, or will, explain how it works, to help us play. Thanks, Creator. 

What's that?  No answer? Er.... Hello?


Nope. Nothing.

Without some meaningful interaction, the Creator is an irrelevance.


Nice conversation piece and a stimulant towards an active brain in our, ahem, late youth, but is worship such a good idea? 

Dawkins is at his most sensitive towards religion when discussing this, and puts it rather better than I.

Essentially a non present God or one we cannot possibly understand can safely be disregarded in normal life.


Act well towards one another,  but don't get up tight about religious detail like eating pork or wearing fringed robes.

Or other people's consensual sex.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #204 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 7:13pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 6:23am:
Someone is going to be right in the end of all of this we call life. Science has yet to tell us or even show us how life creates itself out of nothing.


How did something much more complex than life and with magical powers to boot appeared out of nothing?
  

Non sequitur:

Do You Eat Carrots wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #205 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 9:46pm
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Elmer Fudd wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 10:51am:
But actually evolution is accepted by some Creationists as the way God created.  Even after all the evidence is examined, there still remains a dearth of "transitional" fossils.


The very concept of a "transitional fossil" is a mistake, because it relies too much on the human concept of a species.

The best way I can explain it is with dogs and wolves.  From a mountain of evidence, we know that dogs evolved from wolves.  Dogs and gray wolves are considered to be the same species and can freely interbreed.  However, natural interbreeding is relatively rare, human intervention is almost always the cause.  You'll never see a chihuahua mate with a wolf, for obvious reasons.

Where is the transition between dog and wolf?  There's no hard and fast line.  The wolf population that evolved into dogs didn't suddenly start popping out chihuahuas.  There was a process of becoming less wolf-like and more dog-like.  There's no ancient dog with wolf features except for floppy basset hound ears.  That's not how evolution works.

So we're left with a weird question: when was the first dog born?  The answer is that the question is unanswerable, because "dog" and "wolf" are human categories.  Like almost all categories, they have an obvious center but fuzzy edges.  There's no clear line between "domesticated companion of humans that is still a wolf" and "wolf-like dog".

Put another way, every species is either transitional or going extinct.

This is hard to grasp because we have to realize that "species" is a human idea, not a biological reality.

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So from where did that singularity come if not from a Creator?


No one knows.  Since the laws of physics - which are used to study the Big Bang - were also created by the Big Bang, it's probably impossible to go beyond the Big Bang.

Quote:
I know that begs the question from where did the Creator come?


Raises, not begs!
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #206 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 9:51pm
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Fiddler wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 11:24pm:
There is no question that mankind will solve the secret of life exactly in the same manner as we now dissect the atom, walk in space or disassemble genes and reorder them with intent.


I wouldn't be so sure.  The origins of life are a billionish years old, the original living thing was microscopic, and it had no hard parts that make fossilization easier.  It is entirely possible - even likely - that evidence of the first living thing will never be found.

Of course, there's no hard and fast line between "complex self-replicating molecule" and "extremely primitive living thing".
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #207 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 11:54am
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BowHunter wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 7:13pm:
How did something much more complex than life and with magical powers to boot appeared out of nothing?

Because you can not fathom a Creator outside of the life you live in.  God states he is eternal, he does not live in our realm, one he created.  He exist outside of our mortal form, time does not exist in his realm simply because he is forever.  The problem is grasping the one who made us.  There simply are many things about God that is a mystery to us, we are incapable to grasp the One who made us.  Ask me to explain the Godhead and that is a discussion I can not wrap my head around, but if we were capable of explaining God in his fullness with no mystery does he cease being God?  I would would think so, his power, his very existence challenges our very life to it's core.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #208 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 1:44pm
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Running Deer wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 9:46pm:
No one knows.  Since the laws of physics - which are used to study the Big Bang - were also created by the Big Bang, it's probably impossible to go beyond the Big Bang.



Ref:  Laws of Physics.      Came across this from Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin.



A universe with a beginning begs the vexing question: Just how did it begin? Vilenkin’s answer is by no means confirmed, and perhaps never can be, but it’s still the best solution he’s heard so far: Maybe our fantastic, glorious universe spontaneously arose from nothing at all. This heretical statement clashes with common sense, which admittedly fails us when talking about the birth of the universe, an event thought to occur at unfathomably high energies. It also flies in the face of the Roman philosopher Lucretius, who argued more than 2,000 years ago that “nothing can be created from nothing.”

Of course, Lucretius had never heard of quantum mechanics and inflationary cosmology, 20th-century fields that contest his bold claim. “We usually say that nothing can be created out of nothing because we think it would violate the law of conservation of energy,” a hallowed principle in physics holding that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, Vilenkin explains. So how could you create a universe with matter in it, where there had been nothing before?

“The way the universe gets around that problem is that gravitational energy is negative,” Vilenkin says. That’s a consequence of the fact, mathematically proven, that the energy of a closed universe is zero: The energy of matter is positive, the energy of gravitation is negative, and they always add up to zero. “Therefore, creating a closed universe out of nothing does not violate any conservation laws.”

Vilenkin’s calculations show that a universe created from nothing is likely to be tiny, indeed — far, far smaller than, say, a proton. Should this minute realm contain just a smattering of repulsive-gravity material, that’s enough to ensure it will ignite the unstoppable process of eternal inflation, leading to the universe we inhabit today. If the theory holds, we owe our existence to the humblest of origins: nothing itself.

One virtue of this picture, if correct, is that the spontaneous creation of our universe gives a definite starting point to things. Time begins at the moment of creation, putting to rest the potentially endless questions about “what happened before that.”

Yet the explanation still leaves a huge mystery unaddressed. Although a universe, in Vilenkin’s scheme, can come from nothing in the sense of there being no space, time or matter, something is in place beforehand — namely the laws of physics. Those laws govern the something-from-nothing moment of creation that gives rise to our universe, and they also govern eternal inflation, which takes over in the first nanosecond of time.
  
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #209 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 1:45pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 11:54am:
God states he is eternal, he does not live in our realm, one he created.  He exist outside of our mortal form, time does not exist in his realm simply because he is forever.  The problem is grasping the one who made us.  There simply are many things about God that is a mystery to us, we are incapable to grasp the One who made us.  Ask me to explain the Godhead and that is a discussion I can not wrap my head around, but if we were capable of explaining God in his fullness with no mystery does he cease being God?  I would would think so, his power, his very existence challenges our very life to it's core.



And the only evidence is a book written by men thousands of years ago.. 

Tell me again why it is that you don't believe in Zeus ..there's a lot written about him you know ??

  
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