Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 30 31 [32] 33  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Odds of Evolution Are Zero. (Read 10,619 times)
BowHunter
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 17,825
Location: America
Joined: Dec 5th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #310 - Oct 24th, 2017 at 12:14am
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Oct 23rd, 2017 at 10:45pm:
No, it's not up to me to convince you, false perception. 



You're contradicting yourself.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BowHunter
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 17,825
Location: America
Joined: Dec 5th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #311 - Oct 24th, 2017 at 1:00am
Print Post  
Seawolf wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 6:56am:
...Later, Huse created a computer program to determine the odds of a monkey typing the word “evolution.”...



That guys is a moron. You don't need a computer program to do that. the number of possibilities is 26 to the power of 9, any clown who has paid attention at school knows that.

As someone said. You're trying too hard.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Cranberry Sass
LNF Representative
***
Online

Wrong head.

Posts: 1,170
Joined: Aug 17th, 2017
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #312 - Oct 24th, 2017 at 10:00am
Print Post  
BowHunter wrote on Oct 24th, 2017 at 12:13am:
It's not even clear if most christians ever were Christians or only pretended to, not to be the victims of their neighbors. It's almost certain that a great many of the intellectual ones used Christianity as a means  to acquire power and most likely didn't believe in it themselves.



Nascent Christianity of a type recognizable by Jesus or his disciples lasted only a few hundred years.  Christianity (Romanized Christianity) and with it the contrived Trinitarian formulation began in the 4th century becoming the institution of conquest and control we know today..

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Capt. Lola B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Offline

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,485
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #313 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 10:49am
Print Post  
Cranberry Sass wrote on Oct 23rd, 2017 at 3:04pm:
Einstein was at the time a "Steady State" Universe guy.  i.e. No expansion.  Lemaître's "Expanding" Universe pissed Einstein off.


He was, It's only because his steady state theory did work as an explanation, though it had anomalies that were cleaned up by the big bangs expanding universe.

Surprising as this may sound, this thread caused me to dig deeper, only to suggest that Seawolf is right.  It's weird to see the words "SeaWolf is right," in print, but it's even weirder to have the thought creating cognitive dissonance in my own mind.   Undecided

I revisited the old argument that Mr. Wolf is rehashing, the watchmaker argument , but this time I let an evolutionary chemist lay it out which is worthy of it's own thread in and of itself.  Perhaps an atheist conversion thread is in order.   Grin

Here that Seawolf, You're relentless argument and debate may have actually won a convert and from a former strong atheist at that.  Not kidding, The idea has had me sideways all week trying to wrap my head around it.   






« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2017 at 4:41pm by Capt. Lola B.S.C. »  

"I'm a tranvestwhite and ask that you please use my preferred racial pronoun, "human."  -The Captain
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Cranberry Sass
LNF Representative
***
Online

Wrong head.

Posts: 1,170
Joined: Aug 17th, 2017
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #314 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 4:20pm
Print Post  
Capt. Lola B.S.C. wrote on Oct 27th, 2017 at 10:49am:
He was, It's only because his steady state theory did work As an explanation, though it had anomalies that were cleaned up by the big bangs expanding universe.

Surprising as this may sound, this thread caused me to dig deeper, only to suggest that Seawolf is right.  It's weird to see the words "SeaWolf is right," in print, but it's even weirder to have the thought creating cognitive dissonance in my own mind.   Undecided

I revisited the old argument that Mr. Wolf is rehashing, the watchmaker argument , but this time I let an evolutionary chemist lay it out which is worthy of it's own thread in and of itself.  Perhaps an atheist conversion thread is in order.   Grin

Here that Seawolf, You're relentless argument and debate may have actually won a convert and from a former strong atheist at that.  Not kidding, The idea has had me sideways all week yrying to wrap my head around it.   




The Watchmaker's Analogy (should actually be called the Watchmaker's fallacy) is an interesting phenomena. It simultaneously reveals how little the author understood about evolution and how desperate it's adherents are to overlook the analogy's shortcomings.

I suppose that if one strictly adheres to Paley's discovery of a single 'watch' lying on  the ground with no other examples then it could be said that the existence of the single watch suggests a watchmaker.

But nature doesn't work that way.

Let's say Paley took the watch he'd found home and placed it on the mantle.  He looks at the watch the next day and finds that there are 2 small gears nestled under the edge of the watch.  Excited, Paley returns to the site where he found the watch and searches the area.  To his astonishment he finds another watch and then another.  He finds individual gears and bits that have joined to form balance wheels or arbors.

At which point Paley rightfully concludes that his watch evolved from simpler watch-like mechanisms. 

That's the way nature works..  Simple systems make up more complex systems and so on and so on.

The Watchmaker's Fallacy, as all claims of irreducible complexity are clearly self-refuting arguments.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Capt. Lola B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Offline

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,485
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #315 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 5:07pm
Print Post  
Cranberry Sass wrote on Oct 27th, 2017 at 4:20pm:
The Watchmaker's Analogy (should actually be called the Watchmaker's fallacy) is an interesting phenomena. It simultaneously reveals how little the author understood about evolution and how desperate it's adherents are to overlook the analogy's shortcomings.

I suppose that if one strictly adheres to Paley's discovery of a single 'watch' lying on  the ground with no other examples then it could be said that the existence of the single watch suggests a watchmaker.


Incidentally, that is precisely what we have.  If the watch is analogous to life in the universe, as far as we know, we are alone, the only life we can detect is on planet earth.  What if the reason SETI keeps failing at detecting other life, intelligent or not, is because there is no other life in the universe?  Life, intelligent life, seems to be positively a miracle of random events.

Quote:
But nature doesn't work that way.

Let's say Paley took the watch he'd found home and placed it on the mantle.  He looks at the watch the next day and finds that there are 2 small gears nestled under the edge of the watch.  Excited, Paley returns to the site where he found the watch and searches the area.  To his astonishment he finds another watch and then another.  He finds individual gears and bits that have joined to form balance wheels or arbors.

At which point Paley rightfully concludes that his watch evolved from simpler watch-like mechanisms. 

That's the way nature works..  Simple systems make up more complex systems and so on and so on.

The Watchmaker's Fallacy, as all claims of irreducible complexity are clearly self-refuting arguments.


Let's consider that.

That notion was true in are not so distant past, before the discovery of quantum mechanics.  It seems we had it ass backwards. The idea that we appear to be composed of ever more simple systems, all the way down, worked nicely when the living cell was the fundamental building block of life. We've yet to discover anything more complicated than intelligent life and the quantum world, where the laws of nature as we know them, do not exist.  Not even the speed of light is a constant when considering quantum theory, our brain and consciousness.

It seems the watchmaker argument has since gained a tremendous credibility. 

Think I'll start a thread about that evolutionary chemist who's got me all screwed up over this.  He really lays out the argument nicely.

If all the atheist has is an appeal to probability, than it seems the strong atheist must throw their lot in with the believers and for now, suggest the probability that we were NOT created by some other intelligence is vanishingly small.
« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2017 at 6:46pm by Capt. Lola B.S.C. »  

"I'm a tranvestwhite and ask that you please use my preferred racial pronoun, "human."  -The Captain
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BowHunter
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline


Posts: 17,825
Location: America
Joined: Dec 5th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #316 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 5:42pm
Print Post  
Capt. Lola B.S.C. wrote on Oct 27th, 2017 at 5:07pm:
Incidentally, that is precisely what we have.  If the watch is analogous to life in the universe, as far as we know, we are alone, the only life we can detect is on planet earth.  What if the reason SETI keeps failing at detecting other life, intelligent or not, is because there is no other life in the universe?  Life, intelligent life, seems to be positively a miracle of random events.


Let's consider that.

That notion was true in are not so distant past, before the discovery of quantum mechanics.  It seems we had it ass backwards. The idea that we appear to be composed to ever more simple systems, all the way down, worked nicely when the living cell was the fundamental building block of life. We've yet to discover anything more complicated than intelligent life and the quantum world, where the laws of nature as we know them, do not exist.  Not even the speed of light is a constant when considering quantum theory, our brain and consciousness.

It seems the watchmaker argument has since gained a tremendous credibility. 

Think I'll start a thread about that evolutionary chemist who's got me all screwed up over this.  He really lays out the argument nicely.

If all the atheist has is an appeal to probability, than it seems the strong atheist must throw their lot in with the believers and for now, suggest the probability that we were NOT created by some other intelligence is vanishingly small.


No matter how low the perceived probability of life appearing by itself on Earth it will always be much greater than the one of the existence of a perfect being with superpowers that can do anything it wants.

The god hypothesis is simply ridiculous, it's worse than for instance the idea that gravity is explained by invisible elves plucking the apple from the tree and lowering it to the ground, after all if your perfect being can do anything it wants, why can't it create the invisible elves for the sole purpose of lowering the apple and make them disappear as soon as they are no longer needed? Once you believe in god, nothing is wrong, not even the most ridiculous ideas. That's why the believers always think they are smarter than everyone even geniuses. The god hypothesis fills every hole you have, including the ones inside your head, and gives you a sense of smug certainty.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Capt. Lola B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Offline

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,485
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #317 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 6:20pm
Print Post  
BowHunter wrote on Oct 27th, 2017 at 5:42pm:
No matter how low the perceived probability of life appearing by itself on Earth it will always be much greater than the one of the existence of a perfect being with superpowers that can do anything it wants.

The god hypothesis is simply ridiculous, it's worse than for instance the idea that gravity is explained by invisible elves plucking the apple from the tree and lowering it to the ground, after all if your perfect being can do anything it wants, why can't it create the invisible elves for the sole purpose of lowering the apple and make them disappear as soon as they are no longer needed? Once you believe in god, nothing is wrong, not even the most ridiculous ideas. That's why the believers always think they are smarter than everyone even geniuses. The god hypothesis fills every hole you have, including the ones inside your head, and gives you a sense of smug certainty.


I would agree with you entirely, if we are to limit the definition of God to the Abrahamic faiths, an iron age deity of immense cruelty. that's why He can be rejected on moral grounds, but what if God isn't like that at all?  Maybe our founders who were primarily deists who thought God has effectively left man up to his own devices and doesn't interfere or conduct miracles.

I'm certainly not suggesting an Abrahamic god when I talk about a possible "intelligent designer."  Either way, I still might fall into the believer camp, though my ideas still may differ radically from Seawolfs, he still has to accept me and invite me to  church functions and parties. Biblical chicks are hot to trot baby.  The book is  basically one big sex act. And Abraham begot Isaaq, Isaaq begot Jaqob, Jaqob begot Yehuda and his brothers. The brothers tag teamed Sheila and begot the porn industry...yadda yada yadda

I already have a boner.  Here I come Christianity!!!   Cheesy
« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2017 at 2:42pm by Capt. Lola B.S.C. »  

"I'm a tranvestwhite and ask that you please use my preferred racial pronoun, "human."  -The Captain
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Running Deer
LNF Party Leader
LNF Bunker
***
Offline

Disloyal Opposition

Posts: 4,859
Joined: Dec 10th, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #318 - Oct 27th, 2017 at 8:49pm
Print Post  
Capt. Lola B.S.C. wrote on Oct 27th, 2017 at 5:07pm:
If the watch is analogous to life in the universe


It isn't.  The watch is analogous to the universe itself.

Quote:
What if the reason SETI keeps failing at detecting other life, intelligent or not, is because there is no other life in the universe?


Well then, there would be no other life in the universe.  That would be a shame, but ultimately, so what?

Quote:
We've yet to discover anything more complicated than intelligent life and the quantum world


I don't know what you mean when you say that the quantum world is more complicated than anything else.  It is less intuitive, for sure, but it's not as complex as, say, the world economy.

Quote:
If all the atheist has is an appeal to probability


We have more.  Specifically, we have done centuries of scientific work and have yet to find something that needs a god to explain.  That doesn't mean we've explained everything - we never will - but many things that were thought to be "God did it" turn out to be perfectly explainable without him.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Capt. Lola B.S.C.
LNF Speaker
*****
Offline

Bronze Swimming Certificate

Posts: 13,485
Location: Internet
Joined: Mar 21st, 2014
Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #319 - Oct 28th, 2017 at 3:39pm
Print Post  
Running Deer wrote on Oct 27th, 2017 at 8:49pm:
It isn't.  The watch is analogous to the universe itself.


It might be a semantical argument, but I'd argue that the "universe itself' also means life, intelligent life.

I am all orders of being, the circling galaxy,
the evolutionary intelligence, the lift, and the falling away.
What is, and what isn’t.
You who know, Jelaluddin,
You the one in all, say who I am.
Say I am you.

 You are not just the drop in the ocean.
You are the mighty ocean in the drop.
– Rumi



The composition of life is made up of all of the constituent matter in the galaxy.  To be more poetic, we are composed of the explosion of a star, star dust.  Or we are nuclear waste, depending on your perspective.   

Quote:
Well then, there would be no other life in the universe.  That would be a shame, but ultimately, so what?


So what?  So the bible is correct.  Score one for Seawolf's camp.

Quote:
I don't know what you mean when you say that the quantum world is more complicated than anything else.  It is less intuitive, for sure, but it's not as complex as, say, the world economy.


It is so complex as a matter of fact that we can not even imagine nor conceive of some of the anomalies like Superposition, or the observer effect, or the notion of instantaneous communication between particles faster than the speed of light. 

Our best minds can barely conceptualize how these phenomena occur, let alone come up with a viable use for such knowledge, though they are working on it.  Quantum physics or string theory might as well be magic given our current understanding of "the Quantum world" a world seemingly closed off to direct experience.  At least not observable in a way we can fully understand.  Hell, we barely understand how water works.  It's far more than just the merger of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  There are still something like 40 anomalies still to be discovered with water, one of the most fundamental substances on our planet.
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_anomalies.html

Quote:
We have more.  Specifically, we have done centuries of scientific work and have yet to find something that needs a god to explain.  That doesn't mean we've explained everything - we never will - but many things that were thought to be "God did it" turn out to be perfectly explainable without him.


How can you say that considering the Big Bang theory is a Catholic idea, devised by a catholic monk and for God?  As far as I know, it's the only blatantly religious dogma to be so embraced by science at large.  It certainly helped when the scientists who were first confronted with this radical expanding universe idea quickly mathematized it and removed all connotations to God.  But ya, there's that. 

We haven't even begun the discussion of the improbability of intelligent life managing to claw it's way up through those evolutionary years of toil and death.  Seawolf is right, it's been calculated and the odds of intelligent life managing to evolve on any planet, required a ridiculously improbable chain of events that the probability is literally 0, or more accurately 0.0000000001  or some such silly fraction of a number.

B....B...But, in an infinite universe, with as much time as is required, is sure to eventually develop intelligent life, just like 20 monkeys on 20 typewriters will create the works of Shakespeare given an infinite amount of time I can hear you saying.  Theoretically it makes sense, but the problem is that our universe is not infinite.  We still got tens of billions of years, but the universe is heading for a catastrophe

All I'm suggesting is Seawolf nailed this thread.  It's absolutely a scientific fact that the chance of intelligent life appearing in the known universe is effectively 0.
« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2017 at 8:42pm by Capt. Lola B.S.C. »  

"I'm a tranvestwhite and ask that you please use my preferred racial pronoun, "human."  -The Captain
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 30 31 [32] 33 
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules