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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Odds of Evolution Are Zero. (Read 10,617 times)
Limey
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #320 - Oct 28th, 2017 at 4:36pm
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Capt. Lola B.S.C. wrote on Oct 27th, 2017 at 6:20pm:
I would agree with you entirely, if we are to limit the definition of God to the Abrahamic faiths, an iron age deity of immense cruelty. that's why He can be rejected on moral grounds, but what if God isn't like that at all?  Maybe our founders who were primarily deists who thought God has effectively left man up to his own devices and doesn't interfere or conduct miracles.

I'm certainly not suggesting an Abrahamic god when I talk about a possible "intelligent designer."  Either way, I still might fall into the believer camp, though my ideas still may differ radically from Seawolfs, he still has to accept me and invite me to  church functions and parties. Biblical chicks are hot to trot baby.  The book is  basically one big sex act. And Abraham begot Isaaq, Isaaq begot Jaqob, Jaqob begot Yehuda and his brothers. The brothers tag teamed Sheila and begot the porn industry...yadda yada yadda

I already have a boner.  Here I come Christianity!!!   Cheesy


From a rational point of view, deism doesn’t present any big problems.

It’s effectively a catch all for ‘we haven’t worked some shit out yet... call it God stuff’.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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BowHunter
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #321 - Oct 28th, 2017 at 5:05pm
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Capt. Lola B.S.C. wrote on Oct 28th, 2017 at 3:39pm:
It might be a semantical argument, but I'd argue that the "universe itself' also means life, intelligent life.

I am all orders of being, the circling galaxy,
the evolutionary intelligence, the lift, and the falling away.
What is, and what isn’t.
You who know, Jelaluddin,
You the one in all, say who I am.
Say I am you.

 You are not just the drop in the ocean.
You are the mighty ocean in the drop.
– Rumi



The composition of life is made up of all of the constituent matter in the galaxy.  To be more poetic, we are composed of the explosion of a star, star dust.  Or we are nuclear waste, depending on your perspective.   

So what?  So the bible is correct.  Score one for Seawolf's camp.


It is so complex as a matter of fact that we can not even imagine nor conceive of some of the anomalies like Superposition, or the observer effect, or the notion of instantaneous communication between particles faster than the speed of light. 

Our best minds can barely conceptualize how these phenomena occur, let alone come up with a viable use for such knowledge, though they are working on it.  Quantum physics or string theory might as well be magic given our current understanding of "the Quantum world" a world seemingly closed off to direct experience.  At least not observable in a way we can fully understand.  Hell, we barely understand how water works.  It's far more than just the merger of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  There are still something like 40 anomalies still to be discovered with water, one of the most fundamental substances on our planet.
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_anomalies.html



How can you say that considering the Big Bang theory is a Catholic idea, devised by a catholic monk and for God?  As far as I know, it's the only blatantly religious dogma to be so embraced by science at large.  It certainly helped when the scientists who were first confronted with this radical expanding universe idea quickly mathematized it and removed all connotations to God.  But ya, there's that. 

We haven't even begun the discussion of the improbability of intelligent life managing to claw it's way up through those evolutionary years of toil and death.  Seawolf is right, it's been calculated and the odds of intelligent life managing to evolve on any planet, required a ridiculously improbable chain of events that the probability is literally 0, or more accurately 0.0000000001  or some such silly fraction of a number.

B....B...But, in an infinite universe, with as much time as is required, is sure to eventually develop intelligent life, just like 20 monkeys on 20 typewriters will create the works of Shakespeare given an infinite amount of time I can hear you saying.  Theoretically it makes sense, but the problem is that our universe is not infinite.  We still got tnes of billions of years, but the universe is heading for a catastrophe

All I'm suggesting is Seawolf nailed this thread.  It's absolutely a scientific fact that the chance of intelligent life appearing in the known universe is effectively 0.


What's this unrelated nonsense? Are you high?
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Capt. Lola B.S.C.
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #322 - Oct 29th, 2017 at 6:36pm
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BowHunter wrote on Oct 28th, 2017 at 5:05pm:
What's this unrelated nonsense? Are you high?


Perhaps you would care to explain how it is unrelated?  I pretty much summed up sea Wolf's position and have yet to see a convincing rebuttal.

I'm counting on you bow hunter, atheism is about to lose one of its most prominent members. 😣
  

"I'm a tranvestwhite and ask that you please use my preferred racial pronoun, "human."  -The Captain
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #323 - Oct 29th, 2017 at 6:52pm
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Capt. Lola B.S.C. wrote on Oct 29th, 2017 at 6:36pm:
Perhaps you would care to explain how it is unrelated?  I pretty much summed up sea Wolf's position and have yet to see a convincing rebuttal.

I'm counting on you bow hunter, atheism is about to lose one of its most prominent members. 😣


Grin
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Capt. Lola B.S.C.
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #324 - Oct 29th, 2017 at 8:36pm
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Limey wrote on Oct 28th, 2017 at 4:36pm:
From a rational point of view, deism doesn’t present any big problems.

It’s effectively a catch all for ‘we haven’t worked some shit out yet... call it God stuff’.


Fair enough, if there is anything called "rational theism," perhaps that is it.
  

"I'm a tranvestwhite and ask that you please use my preferred racial pronoun, "human."  -The Captain
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Running Deer
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #325 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 7:41pm
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Capt. Lola B.S.C. wrote on Oct 28th, 2017 at 3:39pm:
It might be a semantical argument, but I'd argue that the "universe itself' also means life, intelligent life.


I think I just went over the Watchmaker Argument recently, explaining what the analogy is trying to do and why it fails.  You can read my summary here.

Be careful with translations of Rumi into English.  Coleman Barks made the most popular translation of Rumi, and Barks purposefully stripped references to Islam and Islamic concepts in Rumi's poetry.

Quote:
The composition of life is made up of all of the constituent matter in the galaxy.  To be more poetic, we are composed of the explosion of a star, star dust.  Or we are nuclear waste, depending on your perspective.


It is incredible, to be sure.   

Quote:
So what?  So the bible is correct.  Score one for Seawolf's camp.


The Bible doesn't mention life on other planets, for or against.  Either reality is compatible with the Bible.

Quote:
It is so complex as a matter of fact that we can not even imagine nor conceive of some of the anomalies like Superposition, or the observer effect, or the notion of instantaneous communication between particles faster than the speed of light.


If we can't imagine or conceive of it, then how do you know about it?  Someone (several someones, actually) imagined and conceived it, and transmitted the knowledge to us.

Quote:
How can you say that considering the Big Bang theory is a Catholic idea, devised by a catholic monk and for God?


Numerous ideas embraced by science were introduced by religious people.  A lot of excellent early work was done in astronomy to facilitate astrology.  That doesn't mean astrology is right, nor does it mean that astronomical work is wrong.  Modeling the universe well is not limited to atheists.  It doesn't even require "pure" scientific motives.  If the model works, it works.

Quote:
Seawolf is right, it's been calculated and the odds of intelligent life managing to evolve on any planet, required a ridiculously improbable chain of events that the probability is literally 0, or more accurately 0.0000000001  or some such silly fraction of a number.


No one has a good calculation for how likely it is for intelligent life to evolve because we don't know enough about the prevalence of the underlying factors.  It may be relatively common; we may be the only ones.  Either way, that doesn't bolster creationism or the existence of God.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Frank1
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #326 - Oct 30th, 2017 at 9:20pm
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Running Deer wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 7:41pm:
I think I just went over the Watchmaker Argument recently, explaining what the analogy is trying to do and why it fails.  You can read my summary here.

Be careful with translations of Rumi into English.  Coleman Barks made the most popular translation of Rumi, and Barks purposefully stripped references to Islam and Islamic concepts in Rumi's poetry.


I don't want to get involved in the whole thread, but yeah, that Rumi translation was terrible.

  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #327 - Oct 31st, 2017 at 1:40am
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Frank1 wrote on Oct 30th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
I don't want to get involved in the whole thread, but yeah, that Rumi translation was terrible.




Are you implying that you're fluent in Arabic?
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #328 - Oct 31st, 2017 at 2:09pm
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BowHunter wrote on Oct 31st, 2017 at 1:40am:
Are you implying that you're fluent in Arabic?


Nope, I am implying that the translation sounds like crap.  It doesn't sound like the work of someone classed as a first-rate poet.

I have thereby deduced something has been lost in translation.

Also, I cannot imagine Rumi used the term "evolutionary intelligence." 
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Running Deer
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Re: The Odds of Evolution Are Zero.
Reply #329 - Nov 1st, 2017 at 8:19pm
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BowHunter wrote on Oct 31st, 2017 at 1:40am:
Are you implying that you're fluent in Arabic?


Rumi wrote primarily in Persian. For more on the poor translation of Rumi, here is a long, but very informative article in the New Yorker.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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