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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I have a question, seriously. (Read 5,200 times)
Fiddler
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #120 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:17pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:15pm:
No, it really doesn't.


Yes, it truly does. 

  
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #121 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:18pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:15pm:
No, it really doesn't.

Both sides have blind spots in their views which result in bad things happening as a consequence of the policies they implement.

How you rank these errors is a function of your values.


Actually I think the evidence does back him up.  At least in my experience.  Not that neither side is blameless, but from my experience, righties are worse than lefties by and large with regard to this particular trait.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #122 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:27pm
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Alright let's test that theory then.

The left supports minimum wage laws. They have the effect of making it illegal to hire people with little to no skills. This tends to impact young minority males the most. We know this because both theory and statistics confirm it, time and time again.

The early progressives knew this and supported mw policy for that reason. They were eugenicists and they wanted a way to limit the undesirable elements from breeding.

The modern left does not know this history and has adopted the policy out of a misguided sense of altruism.

But the negative effect remains.

You end up with people who never get a start in the job market and therefore never develop real skills to earn a decent income with. That means they cannot support a family. And that can drive a person to cease caring about their future and to simply live in the moment.

The right supports the war on drugs. It has the effect of creating a great incentive for people with little opportunity to become criminals and make potentially large sums of money. So people who want to limit drug use and distribution end up settling on a policy which guarantees that more people will be selling and producing drugs, and that the drugs that are produced will be more portent and toxic.

It also ensures that there will be an organized criminal element who will tend to use violence to protect their profits and markets.

The modern right does not know the history of prohibition nor do they understand the incentives they are creating with their policy. They have adopted the war on drugs out of a misguided sense of altruism. And the result has led to something few right-wingers would say they want- an expansive government authority which no longer restricts itself to the rule of law, the constitution or the bill of rights.

So which is worse? The policy which cuts people off from the labor market?

Or the one which creatives incentives for them to produce and sell drugs?

I really cannot say. I know both have ruined the lives of millions and millions of people. I know both had led to great death and suffering.

And coincidently, the same group of people are on the losing end.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #123 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:35pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:27pm:
Alright let's test that theory then.

The left supports minimum wage laws. They have the effect of making it illegal to hire people with little to no skills. This tends to impact young minority males the most. We know this because both theory and statistics confirm it, time and time again.

The early progressives knew this and supported mw policy for that reason. They were eugenicists and they wanted a way to limit the undesirable elements from breeding.

The modern left does not know this history and has adopted the policy out of a misguided sense of altruism.

But the negative effect remains.

You end up with people who never get a start in the job market and therefore never develop real skills to earn a decent income with. That means they cannot support a family. And that can drive a person to cease caring about their future and to simply live in the moment.

The right supports the war on drugs. It has the effect of creating a great incentive for people with little opportunity to become criminals and make potentially large sums of money. So people who want to limit drug use and distribution end up settling on a policy which guarantees that more people will be selling and producing drugs, and that the drugs that are produced will be more portent and toxic.

It also ensures that there will be an organized criminal element who will tend to use violence to protect their profits and markets.

The modern right does not know the history of prohibition nor do they understand the incentives they are creating with their policy. They have adopted the war on drugs out of a misguided sense of altruism. And the result has led to something few right-wingers would say they want- an expansive government authority which no longer restricts itself to the rule of law, the constitution or the bill of rights.

So which is worse? The policy which cuts people off from the labor market?

Or the one which creatives incentives for them to produce and sell drugs?

I really cannot say. I know both have ruined the lives of millions and millions of people. I know both had led to great death and suffering.

And coincidently, the same group of people are on the losing end.


Yeah yeah yeah.  Minimum wage has been around for many, many years, and people still enter the job market.  Unemployment is low of late.  If as many jobs were lost as claimed by opponents of the minimum wage when it's changed we'd have 89.6% unemployment.

Yeah yeah yeah I know about the alleged effect on prices, which means the minimum wage worker is really no better off.  Allegedly.  But that just means the minimum wage makes no difference in standards of living, not that it destroys jobs.

But the trait we're talking about is vindictiveness, not allegedly bad policy.  You are deflecting. They're probably equal in bad policy, but for vindictiveness, my experience is righties win hands down.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #124 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:36pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:27pm:
The left supports minimum wage laws.

The right supports the war on drugs. .


These are not equal in impact ..

We know this if for no other reason than unemployment is not 100% and there are businesses still in operation..

If minimum wage laws were as effective as you say..both of those would be reality..

  
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #125 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:38pm
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EF wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:35pm:
They're probably equal in bad policy, but for vindictiveness, my experience is righties win hands down. 


Yes.. I was about to remind TL of the subject ..


  
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #126 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:40pm
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Fiddler wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:38pm:
Yes.. I was about to remind TL of the subject ..




Deflection is tantamount to admitting defeat.
  

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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #127 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:40pm
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EF wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:35pm:
Yeah yeah yeah.  Minimum wage has been around for many, many years, and people still enter the job market.  Unemployment is low of late.  If as many jobs were lost as claimed by opponents of the minimum wage when it's changed we'd have 89.6% unemployment.


No, we wouldn't.

There is no reason to think that an increase in the minimum wage will lead to higher unemployment.

That's not the claim being made here.

Rather I am making a different claim about a particular sector of labor market. An increase in the minimum tends to reduce the employment of those with the least skills, while increasing the rate of employment of those with higher skills, leaving the unemployment rate unaffected. The effect of the mw on the unemployment rate is ambiguous.

It could even go down!

And the effect I am talking about would still be present.

The minimum wage is a great burden on those with the least skills, which also tends to be people who are minorities and come from poverty.
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Yeah yeah yeah I know about the alleged effect on prices, which means the minimum wage worker is really no better off.  Allegedly.  But that just means the minimum wage makes no difference in standards of living, not that it destroys jobs.


It reduces the standard of living of people who cannot get a job because of it.

Let's make sure you are attacking my specific argument against the mw and not other arguments that are related to the topic. I am going with the strongest case against the mw.

Quote:
But the trait we're talking about is vindictiveness, not allegedly bad policy.  You are deflecting. They're probably equal in bad policy, but for vindictiveness, my experience is righties win hands down. 


I am not talking about vindictiveness. I am trying to settle the question of which side is worse in general, the left or the right.
« Last Edit: Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:47pm by TowardLiberty »  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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TowardLiberty
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #128 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:43pm
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Fiddler wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:36pm:
These are not equal in impact ..


The key question here is how would you rank their harm? How do you rank harm in general?

Quote:
We know this if for no other reason than unemployment is not 100% and there are businesses still in operation..

If minimum wage laws were as effective as you say..both of those would be reality..



That's telling me you are not following what I am saying.

Nothing about my argument implies that an increase in the minimum wage will lead to a higher unemployment rate, or that a business could not stay in operation with it.

I am making a more narrow argument about how the mw impacts a particular segment of the labor market.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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Re: I have a question, seriously.
Reply #129 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:45pm
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EF wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 2:35pm:
They're probably equal in bad policy, but for vindictiveness, my experience is righties win hands down. 

I'd agree with that wholesale.

I just have a bigger issue in view.
  

"Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." J M Keynes

"In the first place, the dichotomy between "theoretical" and "practical" is a false one. In economics, all arguments are theoretical. And, since economics discusses the real world, these theoretical arguments are by their nature "practical" ones as well." M Rothbard
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