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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Jesus on Money (Read 962 times)
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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #10 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 4:23pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 1:34pm:
As a Christian I would disagree, there is nothing more important then a leader who submits to the One who governs all.  Just my opinion that is in scripture.



The founders, including Geo. Washington, disagreed with you.
  

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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #11 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:39pm
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EF wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 4:23pm:
The founders, including Geo. Washington, disagreed with you.


...Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle...

George Washington's Farewell address/

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #12 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:44pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:42pm:
Proclamation—Recommending a National Day of Humiliation, Fasting, and Prayer
March 6, 1799
Messages and Papers of the Presidents
John Adams
John Adams


The American Presidency Project

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By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation

As no truth is more clearly taught in the Volume of Inspiration, nor any more fully demonstrated by the experience of all ages, than that a deep sense and a due acknowledgment of the governing providence of a Supreme Being and of the accountableness of men to Him as the searcher of hearts and righteous distributer of rewards and punishments are conducive equally to the happiness and rectitude of individuals and to the well-being of communities; as it is also most reasonable in itself that men who are made capable of social acts and relations, who owe their improvements to the social state, and who derive their enjoyments from it, should, as a society, make their acknowledgments of dependence and obligation to Him who hath endowed them with these capacities and elevated them in the scale of existence by these distinctions; as it is likewise a plain dictate of duty and a strong sentiment of nature that in circumstances of great urgency and seasons of imminent danger earnest and particular supplications should be made to Him who is able to defend or to destroy; as, moreover, the most precious interests of the people of the United States are still held in jeopardy by the hostile designs and insidious acts of a foreign nation, as well as by the dissemination among them of those principles, subversive of the foundations of all religious, moral, and social obligations, that have produced incalculable mischief and misery in other countries; and as, in fine, the observance of special seasons for public religious solemnities is happily calculated to avert the evils which we ought to deprecate and to excite to the performance of the duties which we ought to discharge by calling and fixing the attention of the people at large to the momentous truths already recited, by affording opportunity to teach and inculcate them by animating devotion and giving to it the character of a national act:

For these reasons I have thought proper to recommend, and I do hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the 25th day of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain as far as may be from their secular occupations, devote the time to the sacred duties of religion in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the Most High God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people;" that He would turn us from our transgressions and turn His displeasure from us; that He would withhold us from unreasonable discontent, from disunion, faction, sedition, and insurrection; that He would preserve our country from the desolating sword; that He would save our cities and towns from a repetition of those awful pestilential visitations under which they have lately suffered so severely, and that the health of our inhabitants generally may be precious in His sight; that He would favor us with fruitful seasons and so bless the labors of the husbandman as that there may be food in abundance for man and beast; that He would prosper our commerce, manufactures, and fisheries, and give success to the people in all their lawful industry and enterprise; that He would smile on our colleges, academies, schools, and seminaries of learning, and make them nurseries of sound science, morals, and religion; that He would bless all magistrates, from the highest to the lowest, give them the true spirit of their station, make them a terror to evil doers and a praise to them that do well; that He would preside over the councils of the nation at this critical period, enlighten them to a just discernment of the public interest, and save them from mistake, division, and discord; that He would make succeed our preparations for defense and bless our armaments by land and by sea; that He would put an end to the effusion of human blood and the accumulation of human misery among the contending nations of the earth by disposing them to justice, to equity, to benevolence, and to peace; and that he would extend the blessings of knowledge, of true liberty, and of pure and undefiled religion throughout the world.

And I do also recommend that with these acts of humiliation, penitence, and prayer fervent thanksgiving to the Author of All Good be united for the countless favors which He is still continuing to the people of the United States, and which render their condition as a nation eminently happy when compared with the lot of others.

Given etc.

JOHN ADAMS.

  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #13 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:48pm
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I found those rather quickly.  I had this debate with Rick who initially had me stumped until I started to research the facts myself.  Their words are not what many thought, similar to how we have distorted the letter to Thomas Jefferson by the Chuch.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #14 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 8:09pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:48pm:
I found those rather quickly.  I had this debate with Rick who initially had me stumped until I started to research the facts myself.  Their words are not what many thought, similar to how we have distorted the letter to Thomas Jefferson by the Chuch.


Well, they had plenty of opportunity to include that stuff in the Constitution but didn't.  And it wasn't an oversight.
  

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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #15 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:12pm
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Because the DOI proclaims the rights of Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness comes ONLY from our Creator.  This sets the tone for the Constitution.  Remember, what they are saying is what God gives no man can take.  I owe this understanding from Ricky who inspired me to really try to find the facts, of course it was his claims that drove me to research the truth.
« Last Edit: Jul 16th, 2017 at 7:20am by Seawolf »  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #16 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 7:18am
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EF wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 8:09pm:
Well, they had plenty of opportunity to include that stuff in the Constitution but didn't.  And it wasn't an oversight.

At least I answered your initial claim.  I hope it inspires you to re-read the facts regardng our founders.  I am discovering the closer to the historical event the writings are the more accurate the story is.  1900 and back of referrences of historical documents.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #17 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 8:56am
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 7:18am:
At least I answered your initial claim.  I hope it inspires you to re-read the facts regardng our founders.  I am discovering the closer to the historical event the writings are the more accurate the story is.  1900 and back of referrences of historical documents.


No, you responded to it.  And it wasn't a "charge."  It was an observation, gleaned from reading the same stuff you read.  Only without a preconceived notion over what it said.
  

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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #18 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 10:19am
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EF wrote on Jul 16th, 2017 at 8:56am:
No, you responded to it.  And it wasn't a "charge."  It was an observation, gleaned from reading the same stuff you read.  Only without a preconceived notion over what it said.

Their words I posted speak for themselves and puts to rest what you were inferring.  Understand, I too was severely misinformed.  It was a matter of simply picking up a book and reading it, verifying the history with documents.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Jesus on Money
Reply #19 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 10:30am
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Seawolf wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:12pm:
Because the DOI proclaims the rights of Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness comes ONLY from our Creator.  This sets the tone for the Constitution.  Remember, what they are saying is what God gives no man can take.  I owe this understanding from Ricky who inspired me to really try to find the facts, of course it was his claims that drove me to research the truth.


Acknowledging the a Creator is not the same as "meditating day and night on the word of the Lord."  Jews and Muslims acknowledge the Creator, too. 

I decided, several years ago and just for personal enrichment, to research for myself claims that the United States was founded as a "Christian nation."  Not to disprove it, but to confirm it.  I found the opposite to be true.  Not that all the founders were non-Christian; clearly many were.  But clearly many were not.  Making Christianity part and parcel of the founding documents was discussed and rejected, even by Christians.  Because they knew that mixing the secular with the sacred does not uplift the secular, it profanes the sacred.  And as Jesus Himself said, "My kingdom is not of this earth."

I also learned that the level of devotion among founding fathers who were professing Christians was not much greater than what I see around me today.  They were just imperfect people trying to establish a government which respected the rights of all without favoring anybody over anybody else. 

It is true that the original settlers in the 1600's were, according to the record they left, attempting to establish a "city on a hill" that worshiped Jesus in spirit and in truth as a matter of public policy.  They said.  But what they really wanted was to be the persecutors rather than the persecutees.  They did not have a problem with coercing certain beliefs and worship styles and church attendance and forcing everybody to support monetarily certain churches as long as they were the ones setting the rules.

Roger Williams had a real problem with that and suffered considerably because of it. 

When I read about the faith of George Washington I don't see a fellow who meditated on the word of the Lord day and night and wore out the knees of his pants seeking the Lord's guidance.  I see a fellow who was a Christian believer not much unlike many of the ones I know today.  I learn of a fellow who, when told a man of his position should not leave the worship service just ahead of communion (as many others did) because it set a bad example just stopped attending on those Sundays.  I see a man who recognized the existence of a Creator but for whom religion was NOT to be a part of any governing principles. 

My point to you was not that none of them were Christians, but that a majority of them did NOT feel that being a Christian was the most important attribute in a leader (which is what you claim).  The reason I say that is because that very subject was brought up and debated and rejected by an overwhelming majority. 

Given a choice between the likes of Thomas Jefferson (who was clearly not a Christian because he doubted the divinity of Jesus and believed the New Testament to be full of errors, which is why he was "rewriting" it, even though he did once say he believed himself to be a Christian in the only sense it mattered) and the likes of Billy Graham, I'd vote for T. Jefferson.  If what you said about the importance of being a Christian is true, then you'd vote for B. Graham.  I'm okay with that, but the founders disagreed with your primary qualification being a qualification at all, let alone primary.  That's all I am saying. 
  

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