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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do You Believe In God Or Creator? (Read 4,752 times)
Running Deer
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #180 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 7:37pm
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 2nd, 2017 at 1:17am:
In the entire scripture, there isn't a single indication as to the shape of the cross, not one!


Correct.


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So the shape that's given to the cross is the result of a guess and a bad one at that since it's a very unlikely one.


I wouldn't say it's a guess.  Although the cross did not become a widely-used Christian symbol until later, there were already crosses used to mark Christianity as early as the 70s, less than 50 years after Jesus's death.  I think it would be incredibly odd for the cross shape to be agreed upon so early in Christian history and so close to the living memories of the oldest Christians if it were not the correct shape.  There's certainly no reason to think the cross shape is "unlikely", and I've provided evidence that a variety of shapes were already in use.

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Besides, you forget, or didn't know, that orgasm is associated with death in many a culture, in fact in French it is even called "petite mort" meaning little death.


You can't just throw around cultural references without actually looking at the underlying culture.  Christianity grew out of Judaism, and Holy Week and Easter Sunday are directly tied to the Jewish Passover.

The Passover celebrates the destruction of the Egyptian firstborn and the liberation of Israel from Egypt.  (The event is mythical, but the celebration is real.)  The Passover story is a story of death-to-life, as is the death and resurrection of Jesus.

In the Passover, Moses tells the Jews that the Messenger of Yah was coming to slay the firstborn of the Egyptians, and would slay the firstborn of the Jews, too, unless the Jews sacrificed animals and dabbed their blood on the doors of their houses.  They did so, the Messenger slew the Egyptian firstborn but passed over the Jewish houses, and that final blow allowed the Jews to escape Egypt.  Egypt served as a symbol of slavery and death, and the escape symbolized life.

The crucifixion is a parallel death-to-life story tied directly to the Passover, since Christianity emerged from Judaism and Jesus and his Apostles were all Jewish.  In parallel, the cross is not a symbol of life or fertility.  It is a symbol of destruction and death.  The resurrection is the symbol of life, the escape from death.

Thus in the particular cultural context that gave rise to Christianity, it makes no sense to tie the cross to pre-Christian fertility symbols.  The cross is a symbol of exactly the opposite.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #181 - Nov 2nd, 2017 at 10:02pm
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 2nd, 2017 at 6:28pm:
You are by far the nastiest and most vicious of us both, and in this case you simply have no good answers to give as I have described you with accuracy. You perpetuate lies hoping that it will earn you favors in a hypothetical afterlife which is incredibly stupid.

You know very well that people have invented that lie about the wrists because they couldn't reconcile their religion with reality.

Anyone can google up thousands of pictures of crucifixes, not one of them with nails positioned elsewhere than in the palms of the hands.

Regardless of that, you'll lie through your teeth to "defend your faith".

You're about as reliable as a thief giving testimony about his own larcenies and you are meaner than a junkyard dog.

I give you answers, you will never accept it because you are as adamant there is no God as I am that there is a God.  Round and round we go, till the end we shall know.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #182 - Nov 3rd, 2017 at 1:17am
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Running Deer wrote on Nov 2nd, 2017 at 7:37pm:
...
I wouldn't say it's a guess.  Although the cross did not become a widely-used Christian symbol until later, there were already crosses used to mark Christianity as early as the 70s, less than 50 years after Jesus's death.  I think it would be incredibly odd for the cross shape to be agreed upon so early in Christian history and so close to the living memories of the oldest Christians if it were not the correct shape...



They were wrong about the nails, though. Regardless of how early they were made the crucifixes all placed the nails in the palms of the hands, so why would it be so odd if they were wrong about another detail like the shape of the cross as well? Maybe there is a cultural bias, plus carrying around a Xshaped crucifix is less practical than the one they opted to.  Practical reasons are often the most compelling ones when it comes to choosing a symbol.

People made other mistakes as well, like giving Jesus ethnic traits that would have made him stick out like a sore thumb when and where he was supposed to have lived.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #183 - Nov 6th, 2017 at 8:30pm
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 3rd, 2017 at 1:17am:
They were wrong about the nails, though. Regardless of how early they were made the crucifixes all placed the nails in the palms of the hands, so why would it be so odd if they were wrong about another detail like the shape of the cross as well?


At the time, the Greek language did not have separate words for wrist and hand, which is worth remembering.

As for the exact position of the nails, it's possible that the crucifixes showing nails through the hand was wrong, and they went through the wrist instead.  They could also be right, since Jesus was also supposed to have been nailed through the feet as well, and he could have been nailed through the base of thumb instead of the palm, which would have been more stable.

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Practical reasons are often the most compelling ones when it comes to choosing a symbol.


This could not be more wrong.  It is spectacularly wrong.

It's also worth noting that you haven't provided a single piece of evidence that the cross was any other shape than the traditional one.

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People made other mistakes as well, like giving Jesus ethnic traits that would have made him stick out like a sore thumb when and where he was supposed to have lived.


I wouldn't say this is a mistake, per se.  Asian Christians have depicted Jesus as Asian, African Christians as African, European Christians as European, etc.  They all depicted Jesus as looking like their people, which is only a mistake if art is supposed to be a historical document.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #184 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:54am
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Running Deer wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
At the time, the Greek language did not have separate words for wrist and hand, which is worth remembering.

As for the exact position of the nails, it's possible that the crucifixes showing nails through the hand was wrong, and they went through the wrist instead.  They could also be right, since Jesus was also supposed to have been nailed through the feet as well, and he could have been nailed through the base of thumb instead of the palm, which would have been more stable.


This could not be more wrong.  It is spectacularly wrong.

It's also worth noting that you haven't provided a single piece of evidence that the cross was any other shape than the traditional one.


I wouldn't say this is a mistake, per se.  Asian Christians have depicted Jesus as Asian, African Christians as African, European Christians as European, etc.  They all depicted Jesus as looking like their people, which is only a mistake if art is supposed to be a historical document.


That still doesn't explain why the Romans would have invented a new way of crucifying people for Jesus alone. Jesus was just an ordinary criminal to them, no different from the two that were executed alongside with him. We know that in the time of Spartacus they executed thousands of people at the same time. Why would they depart from a tried and true method and nail his hands and feet instead of tying them with ropes? The loss of blood and the septicemia would have likely weakened him and shorten the ordeal instead of prolonging it as was apparently the intention. This doesn't male sense.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #185 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 7:45pm
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 12:54am:
That still doesn't explain why the Romans would have invented a new way of crucifying people for Jesus alone.


What makes you think Jesus was the first person nailed to a cross?
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #186 - Nov 7th, 2017 at 11:58pm
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Running Deer wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 7:45pm:
What makes you think Jesus was the first person nailed to a cross?


Because it is impractical, for the reasons I've given.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #187 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 7:28pm
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 11:58pm:
Because it is impractical, for the reasons I've given.


If you drive the nails through the thumb pad and also nail the feet, as they supposedly did to Jesus, it would work.  Directly through the palms would not.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #188 - Nov 8th, 2017 at 11:52pm
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Running Deer wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 7:28pm:
If you drive the nails through the thumb pad and also nail the feet, as they supposedly did to Jesus, it would work.  Directly through the palms would not.


How do you explain the crucifixes then?
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #189 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 11:47am
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 8th, 2017 at 11:52pm:
How do you explain the crucifixes then?


they're historically inaccurate.
  

non sumus stulti
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