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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HereReligion Forum › Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do You Believe In God Or Creator? (Read 4,753 times)
EF
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #190 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 12:04pm
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 11:58pm:
Because it is impractical, for the reasons I've given.


Many execution procedures are "impractical," but being practical is hardly a requirement in executions.  Back in the day, inflicting as much pain as possible was frequently a goal.  Sometimes creating a live horror show for the "amusement" of some was a primary goal.  Nailng someone to a cross would, seems to me, be more graphic than merely tying someone to a cross. 
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #191 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 1:48pm
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EF wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 11:47am:
they're historically inaccurate.


So you admit that religion is based on bullshit, because if they can't be true about something as simple as a crucifix, how can we believe them about more complex issues?
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #192 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 2:03pm
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EF wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 12:04pm:
Many execution procedures are "impractical," but being practical is hardly a requirement in executions.  Back in the day, inflicting as much pain as possible was frequently a goal.  Sometimes creating a live horror show for the "amusement" of some was a primary goal.  Nailng someone to a cross would, seems to me, be more graphic than merely tying someone to a cross. 


Except that the maximum pain is obtained by tying someone. Nailing that way is liable to cause bleeding and gangrene and weaken the condemned and therefore they'll suffer less than by the other method. The thing is that graphic executions are rarely the ones inflicting the more suffering. For instance the more blood you lose the weaker you'll be until you become almost anesthetized. Why do you think people often kill themselves by cutting their veins? Because it's almost painless.

Basically, you're saying that the Romans who had centuries of experience were so stupid that they didn't know that they would maximize suffering by simply tying Jesus to the cross and letting him exhaust himself moving up and down for hours and even days. Instead, they would cause him to either bleed or get gangrene that would definitely shorten his ordeal, there's also a good chance of getting tetanus which would kill him in a couple of hours.

Until science proved otherwise people like you would swear that the nails were driven through the palms of the hands. Your kind modified that view NOT because of some "biblical" revelation but because of science.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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EF
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #193 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 2:21pm
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BowHunter wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
So you admit that religion is based on bullshit, because if they can't be true about something as simple as a crucifix, how can we believe them about more complex issues?


No, I am saying the exact placement of nails is irrelevant to what happened.  If I see someone driving nails into a man's wrists, and I speak a language in which the same word can refer to both  hands and wrists, it's possible my account of that event might lead someone desiring to craft an object based on that event to show nails through hands.  If the nails WERE driven into that part of the hand that COULD support the weight, then all that has happened is the craftsman has erred.  Doesn't mean the fact of the crucifixion by nails is "bullshit."

You are inclined toward disbelief in the entire account.  That there are historical (and non-biblical) records to support it does not matter to you.  And, granted, that the historical event occurred does not mean Jesus was who he said he was.  That requires faith, and that faith is a gift of God, not of works.  You don't believe that, either. 

I'm fine with that.  I don't know if you're so insecure in your disbelief that you want to nitpick around the edges or you're just one of those "evangelical atheists" who feels led to spread the "good news of atheism" far and wide as if some higher power had instructed him to do it.  And I frankly don't care, either.
  

non sumus stulti
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #194 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 2:52pm
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EF wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 2:21pm:
No, I am saying the exact placement of nails is irrelevant to what happened.  If I see someone driving nails into a man's wrists, and I speak a language in which the same word can refer to both  hands and wrists, it's possible my account of that event might lead someone desiring to craft an object based on that event to show nails through hands.  If the nails WERE driven into that part of the hand that COULD support the weight, then all that has happened is the craftsman has erred.  Doesn't mean the fact of the crucifixion by nails is "bullshit."

You are inclined toward disbelief in the entire account.  That there are historical (and non-biblical) records to support it does not matter to you.  And, granted, that the historical event occurred does not mean Jesus was who he said he was.  That requires faith, and that faith is a gift of God, not of works.  You don't believe that, either. 

I'm fine with that.  I don't know if you're so insecure in your disbelief that you want to nitpick around the edges or you're just one of those "evangelical atheists" who feels led to spread the "good news of atheism" far and wide as if some higher power had instructed him to do it.  And I frankly don't care, either. 


Your ad hominem only proves one thing and it's that you are aware of the lameness of your arguments.

If you were so sure of yourself you'd have stopped at the first paragraph. Everything that follows is nothing but personal attack.

Anyway, this, of course, doesn't work as people would have found a way to be more precise in their description or they would have transmitted the information otherwise. Since they were lying about the method then they could not know that it didn't work.

How do we spot false/unreliable witnesses? By the inconsistencies and lack of pertinent details of their reports. People didn't think to give a more accurate description of the "nailing" because they thought from the very beginning that nailing through the palms of the hands would work and had no means to know that it didn't.

That's the only reasonable explanation for why THOUSANDS of crucifix makers throughout the ages got it ALL wrong. Not one who knew that the method didn't work.

Of course, we can always count on fanatics to deny the obvious and replace it by the ridiculously improbable, the same fanatics that will then spend twice as much time attacking the messenger that they did attacking the message.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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BowHunter
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #195 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 3:03pm
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EF wrote on Nov 9th, 2017 at 12:04pm:
Many execution procedures are "impractical," but being practical is hardly a requirement in executions.  Back in the day, inflicting as much pain as possible was frequently a goal.  Sometimes creating a live horror show for the "amusement" of some was a primary goal.  Nailng someone to a cross would, seems to me, be more graphic than merely tying someone to a cross. 



That's the reason why people concocted this improbable variation. Because although it sounds more gorish and gruesome, it is, in fact, less painful as a result. Why would the Romans be so stupid as to try to improve a tried and true method of execution that they would have used for centuries? It doesn't make any sense. The flogging for instance doesn't make sense either as it is well known that being crucified is by far the worst torture. People often die of flogging and when they do they'll have suffered much less than someone who's been crucified. So it doesn't make sense only to someone who's lying about the whole thing would concoct a story like that because they wouldn't know about these things. Just as when people lied about visiting remote countries back then they would invent all sorts of fabulous totally impossible things, like giants and creatures of all sorts.

I don't expect fanatics to get that, though.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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BowHunter
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #196 - Nov 9th, 2017 at 3:27pm
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A common mistake that's made by a lot of people is to think that if you combine two ways of execution or if you add gory details like the nails or flogging which results in cuts all over the body and starts infections and in the end weakens the body, it will make a more painful death and increase the suffering, when in fact it is the exact opposite.

Crucifixion is a terrible way to die in and of itself it doesn't need any additions. If Jesus had been beaten to within an inch of his life for example before being put on the cross then he would have likely been unconscious for some time and died very quickly of suffocation as a result, without any suffering at all.

I hope someone here is capable of getting this point.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Limey
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #197 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:54pm
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I get your point Bow, mate, but I think you’re off in the weeds on this one.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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Re: Do You Believe In God Or Creator?
Reply #198 - Nov 10th, 2017 at 4:09pm
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Limey wrote on Nov 10th, 2017 at 3:54pm:
I get your point Bow, mate, but I think you’re off in the weeds on this one.


Elaborate.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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