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EF
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Re: Ayn Rand
Reply #50 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:27pm
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Frank1 wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 2:13pm:
But cannot we say that the evil done in Marx's name makes him as bad as Hitler?

He me have not done physical evil, but his ideas eventually led to massive physical, as well as psychological suffering for hundreds of millions.

Ideas have consequences.



No, I do not believe that the evil done in Marx's name makes him as bad as Hitler.  Stalin was clearly an evil man, at least as evil as Hitler.  As was pointed out to FDR during WWII, Stalin was at least as big a sonofabitch as Hitler, if not bigger. To which FDR replied, "Yes, but Uncle Joe is OUR sonofabitch."

Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong Un, and all those other despots who called/call themselves Marxists were/are "MINOS."  (Marxist in name only.)  Their evil did not result from adhering to Marx's teachings but from their innate and utter depravity.  Just as the "Reverend" Fred Phelps's misuse of Jesus's teachings in no way makes Jesus guilty of the "reverend's" transgression, their misuse of Marx's teachings does not make Marx guilty.

I have read Das Kapital and found it very dry and naively idealistic in some ways.  He was clearly not exactly playing with a full deck, IMO.  He strikes me as somewhat of a "navel gazer."  But I read it a long time ago so maybe I have misremembered what it said.  I do remember coming to the conclusion that it'll never work this side of the topsoil.  It did not make me want to embrace communism in any shape form or fashion.
  

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Re: Ayn Rand
Reply #51 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 6:39pm
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BowHunter wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 4:02pm:
The same thing can be said about Jesus, millions of people have been massacred in his name. Would you agree then that that's makes him as bad as Hitler, according to your OWN assessment?   

Add to that that Islam is but a continuation of Christianity and you can add the millions killed in the name of Islam to Jesus' credit.

edited, you have been warned about this behavior if not more but Christianity is to Islam what Judaism is to Christianity, a precursor.


Ideas do have consequences.


First off, your Orientalist ideas about Islam are really quite out-of-fashion, and are considered culturally-oppressive.  Muslims do not consider their religion to be a "continuation of Christianity" but rather a separate revelation, and the view that Islam is some type of continuation of, or bastardization of, Christianity, is merely the opinion of Westerners who are almost completely ignorant of Muslims and how they view their religion.

Second, what millions have been killed in the name of Jesus, and how do Jesus's teachings support such mass murder?
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: Ayn Rand
Reply #52 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 7:44pm
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Frank1 wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 6:39pm:
Second, what millions have been killed in the name of Jesus


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
  

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Re: Ayn Rand
Reply #53 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:26pm
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EF wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:27pm:
No, I do not believe that the evil done in Marx's name makes him as bad as Hitler.  Stalin was clearly an evil man, at least as evil as Hitler.  As was pointed out to FDR during WWII, Stalin was at least as big a sonofabitch as Hitler, if not bigger. To which FDR replied, "Yes, but Uncle Joe is OUR sonofabitch."

Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong Un, and all those other despots who called/call themselves Marxists were/are "MINOS."  (Marxist in name only.)  Their evil did not result from adhering to Marx's teachings but from their innate and utter depravity.  Just as the "Reverend" Fred Phelps's misuse of Jesus's teachings in no way makes Jesus guilty of the "reverend's" transgression, their misuse of Marx's teachings does not make Marx guilty.

I have read Das Kapital and found it very dry and naively idealistic in some ways.  He was clearly not exactly playing with a full deck, IMO.  He strikes me as somewhat of a "navel gazer."  But I read it a long time ago so maybe I have misremembered what it said.  I do remember coming to the conclusion that it'll never work this side of the topsoil.  It did not make me want to embrace communism in any shape form or fashion.


One difference, I think, between the teachings of Jesus and those of Marx is that one of these teachings created an entire civilization in the West, and minor demi-civilizations, like that of the Ethiopians.  Christianity has been the spiritual life blood of billions.  This is a good.

What has Marxism created or sustained that is good?

Big difference.

I think the Hegelian basis of Marxism, this idea that the world is moving towards some inevitable utopia, is prone to abuse, vicious abuse.  Why?  Mainly because it is false.  People will do a lot to bring about the worldly utopia, including killing all who stand in their way, and their is almost no compensating good to come from Marxism for all the evil.
  


To say homo sapiens, is to say Homo religiosus; there is no man without God. ~Frithjof Schuon
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Re: Ayn Rand
Reply #54 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:26pm
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Frank1 wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:26pm:
One difference, I think, between the teachings of Jesus and those of Marx is that one of these teachings created an entire civilization in the West, and minor demi-civilizations, like that of the Ethiopians.  Christianity has been the spiritual life blood of billions.  This is a good.

What has Marxism created or sustained that is good?

Big difference.

I think the Hegelian basis of Marxism, this idea that the world is moving towards some inevitable utopia, is prone to abuse, vicious abuse.  Why?  Mainly because it is false.  People will do a lot to bring about the worldly utopia, including killing all who stand in their way, and their is almost no compensating good to come from Marxism for all the evil.


I am not sure I would credit the teachings of Jesus as much as you do for "creating western civilization."  The Romans and Greeks had a lot to do with it, too.  Plus, the teachings of Jesus really aren't about "nation building."  He said so Himself.  "My kingdom is not of this world."  But I get your main point.  Jesus and Karl Marx are not peers.  And I fully agree.  The teachings of Marx are, at best, "navel gazing."  But many non-Christians recognize the worth of Jesus's teachings even while denying his divinity.  (Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin are two examples that come to mind.)

Marx's teachings ARE subject to abuse.  But that does not make Marx guilty of that abuse.  Many abuses have been committed because "God said" when God didn't say a thing.  Like the Crusades.  Or the people who take up snakes and drink poison (there is a verse about that, but I think it's taken out of context).  Or the people who try to beat the gayness out of people "in the name of Jesus."
  

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Re: Ayn Rand
Reply #55 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:57pm
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It's amusing how the people who think that Jesus has no relation whatsoever with the millions that have been killed explicitly in his name, by people who were bible scholars, are the same who think that Marx should be held responsible for events that happened after his death, regardless of the fact that they grant superhuman insight to Jesus and evidently not to Marx. The blind fanaticism expressed by these people is comical in its caricatural excessiveness.
  

Non sequitur:

The Wet Dreams of Mr Cousteau wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: Ayn Rand
Reply #56 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 11:13am
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BowHunter wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:57pm:
It's amusing how the people who think that Jesus has no relation whatsoever with the millions that have been killed explicitly in his name, by people who were bible scholars, are the same who think that Marx should be held responsible for events that happened after his death, regardless of the fact that they grant superhuman insight to Jesus and evidently not to Marx. The blind fanaticism expressed by these people is comical in its caricatural excessiveness.



not to mention that before they claimed jesus as their reason for murder and starting wars there was the moses freak who claimed direct commands by god to commit genocide on all manner of people. well maybe not complete genocide, they did keep the "clean" baby girls.
  

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