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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who really caused Jesus to be murdered. (Read 720 times)
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #30 - Sep 7th, 2017 at 3:05pm
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I don't think many people doubt Jesus existed. I don't. The problem is all the rest. The best anyone can say is that we have accounts about him that have been "laundered" literally hundreds of times throughout history both innocently and by religionists with agendas. And so anything we claim to know is really just a claim about "documentation" many many times removed from the actual incident. Having witnesses is meaningless because our knowledge of these witnesses is from these laundered sources.

It's a little like people thinking the bible is so elegant and beautiful because of the manner in which it was written...And Jesus saith to his brethren, Thou hast... etc. People's estimation of the beauty of that passage (an example, not real) is based on the King James old english rendition. So what people like is the sound of Old English. If they heard the original, it probably sounded more like something you'd hear coming out of a muslim terrorists mouth...more arabic (aramaic really). (And no i'm not equating Jesus with a terrorist at all, just an example).
  
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #31 - Sep 7th, 2017 at 8:07pm
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The Bible has beautiful passages regardless of language.  The Song of Solomon is particularly beautiful.

As a note, the King James Version is in Early Modern English, not Old English.  Old English changed into Middle English 700+ years ago and is a different language from Modern English.  This is what Old English looked like:

Ic nam me to gemynde þa gewritu and þa word, þe se arcebiscop Lyfing me fram þam papan brohte of Rome, þæt ic scolde æghwær Godes lof upp aræran and unriht alecgan and full frið wyrcean be ðære mihte, þe me God syllan wolde.

Roughly translated:

I took to heart the letter and the message that Archbishop Lyfing brought to me from the Pope in Rome: that everywhere I should promote God's love and praise, and outlaw lies, and create peace by the power that God desired to give me.
  

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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #32 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 7:44am
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EF wrote on Sep 7th, 2017 at 2:45pm:
There should be no question in the mind of any reasonable person that the man Jesus existed, and that that man claimed to be the Son of God, and that that man was crucified.  I can see reasonable people doubting that He was who He claimed to be, but not that He existed and did make that claim.  But no one will ever be argued into believing His claim.  That comes only by the work of God.  I certainly don't have all the answers and frankly ignore people who claim they do (or even claim they have MOST of them) because I know better.  They don't.  I recognize that the nature of God is such that no one in a mortal body can understand it.  And there is no point or profit in a deep discussion of it with non-believers.  The Book even says so.  The chapter I have the hardest time with is the 9th Chapter of Romans.  The doctrine I have the hardest time with is the doctrine of election.  And not even Billy Graham, IMO, has a really good grasp of either that chapter or that doctrine. 

Spot on Elmer.  The one important point is that we save no one, that is by God's Holy Spirit.  We present his word and then everything else is by his will and purpose.  That in no way relives us of our duty to warn unbelievers of his judgement that awaits all.  No one can say they have complete knowledge of God, we know only what he has chosen to reveal to us.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #33 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 11:22am
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EF wrote on Sep 7th, 2017 at 2:45pm:
There should be no question in the mind of any reasonable person that the man Jesus existed, and that that man claimed to be the Son of God, and that that man was crucified.  I can see reasonable people doubting that He was who He claimed to be, but not that He existed and did make that claim.  But no one will ever be argued into believing His claim.  That comes only by the work of God.  I certainly don't have all the answers and frankly ignore people who claim they do (or even claim they have MOST of them) because I know better.  They don't.  I recognize that the nature of God is such that no one in a mortal body can understand it.  And there is no point or profit in a deep discussion of it with non-believers.  The Book even says so.  The chapter I have the hardest time with is the 9th Chapter of Romans.  The doctrine I have the hardest time with is the doctrine of election.  And not even Billy Graham, IMO, has a really good grasp of either that chapter or that doctrine. 


That's a presumptuous assumption that stems from religious fanaticism and nothing much else. There is definite proof that there were several people back then that claimed to be all manners of prophets, pretty much like what is happening nowadays with the same amount of crooks and outright crazies ( similar to what happened in Waco and the likes for the latter). Some of these people may have been put to death and the common way for the Romans to execute people found guilty of sedition was indeed crucifixion. But otherwise there's no specific mention by the Romans themselves that they executed someone that can be identified as Jesus. That is pure speculation. So saying that there should be no doubt that what you're alleging did happen is therefore partisan bullshit and not to be taken seriously.
  

Non sequitur:

Rodney Your Teas Ready wrote on Mar 2nd, 2017 at 4:30am:
... that has less power than a hair dryer used by a eunuch.



Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm:
...that makes me a moron.
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #34 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 1:25pm
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Running Deer wrote on Sep 7th, 2017 at 8:07pm:
The Bible has beautiful passages regardless of language.  The Song of Solomon is particularly beautiful.

As a note, the King James Version is in Early Modern English, not Old English.  Old English changed into Middle English 700+ years ago and is a different language from Modern English.  This is what Old English looked like:

Ic nam me to gemynde þa gewritu and þa word, þe se arcebiscop Lyfing me fram þam papan brohte of Rome, þæt ic scolde æghwær Godes lof upp aræran and unriht alecgan and full frið wyrcean be ðære mihte, þe me God syllan wolde.

Roughly translated:

I took to heart the letter and the message that Archbishop Lyfing brought to me from the Pope in Rome: that everywhere I should promote God's love and praise, and outlaw lies, and create peace by the power that God desired to give me.
I stand corrected about the type of english. My point however remains the same.
  
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #35 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 1:32pm
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 11:22am:
That's a presumptuous assumption that stems from religious fanaticism and nothing much else. There is definite proof that there were several people back then that claimed to be all manners of prophets, pretty much like what is happening nowadays with the same amount of crooks and outright crazies ( similar to what happened in Waco and the likes for the latter). Some of these people may have been put to death and the common way for the Romans to execute people found guilty of sedition was indeed crucifixion. But otherwise there's no specific mention by the Romans themselves that they executed someone that can be identified as Jesus. That is pure speculation. So saying that there should be no doubt that what you're alleging did happen is therefore partisan bullshit and not to be taken seriously.
See my post. I doesn't really matter if Jesus was real or not. Most biblical scholars, including non-Christian ones, agree he existed. But that has nothing to do with anything. Going from he existed to he was divine, or the son of some god, is impossible. Doesn't matter who says it, how many times he says, or how many people say it. In fact, there were many group of Jesus' followers who specifically did not think he was divine, but was just a great preacher with helpful things to say. It's just that the groups that believed he was divine eventually won out, and their stories became what appears today as "the truth". Doesn't mean it IS the truth though.
  
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #36 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 2:49pm
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BowHunter wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 11:22am:
That's a presumptuous assumption that stems from religious fanaticism and nothing much else. There is definite proof that there were several people back then that claimed to be all manners of prophets, pretty much like what is happening nowadays with the same amount of crooks and outright crazies ( similar to what happened in Waco and the likes for the latter). Some of these people may have been put to death and the common way for the Romans to execute people found guilty of sedition was indeed crucifixion. But otherwise there's no specific mention by the Romans themselves that they executed someone that can be identified as Jesus. That is pure speculation. So saying that there should be no doubt that what you're alleging did happen is therefore partisan bullshit and not to be taken seriously.



Cornelius Tacitus (AD55-120) Roman historian:  Most acclaimed works are the Annals and the Histories.  The Annals cover the period from Augustus Caesar's death in AD14 to the death of the Emperor Nero in AD68, while the Histories begin after Nero's death and proceed to the reign of Domitian in AD96.  In the Annals, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome.  See Annals XV,44: But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome.  Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities.  Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also."  (The misspelling of Christ as "Christus" was a common error made by pagan writers). It is interesting that Pilate is not mentioned in any other pagan document which has survived.  It is an irony of history that the only surviving reference to him in a pagan document mentions him because of the sentence of death he passed on Jesus the Messiah.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #37 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 2:50pm
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4.Tallus: Tallus was a secular historian who (circa AD52) wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Trojan War to his own time. The document no longer exists but it was quoted by other writers like the Christian, Julius Africanus, who wrote around AD221.  He quotes Tallus' comments about the darkness that enveloped the land during the late afaternoon hours when Jesus died on the cross.  Julius wrote: Tallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1  The importance of Tallus' comments is that the reference shows that the Gospel account of the darkness that fell across the earth during Christ's crucifixion was well known and required a naturalistic explanation from non-Christians.

5.Phlegon: Julius Africanus also quoted another secular scholar whose works are now lost. Phlegon wrote a history called Chronicles.  Phlegon also comments on the darkness at the time of Christ's crucifixion:  "During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1
(The 3rd century Christian apologist Origen also references Phlegon's record of this event in his work Celsum, 2.14,33,59 as does the 6th century writer Philopon (De.opif.mund. II, 21.

6.Mara Bar-Serapion: Syrian stoic philosopher who wrote a letter from prison to his son circa 70AD. He compares Jesus to the philosophers Socrates and Pythagoras.

7.Josephus ben Mattathias (also known as Flavius Josephus):  37-100AD, Jewish priest, general and historian.  He wrote two great works of Jewish history: The Jewish War, written in the early 70's and Jewish Antiquities, which was finished about AD94. In his work, Jewish Antiquities, there is a passage that has created heated debate among scholars for many decades:  "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure.  He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.  And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities, XVIII, 33

8.Lucian of Samosate: Greek satirist later half of 2nd century spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians but never argued that Jesus never existed. "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account..." The Death of Peregrine, 11-13

9.The Babylonian Talmud: "It has been taught:  On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu.  And an announcer went out, in front of him, for 40 days (saying): 'He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray.  Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of Passover." Sanhedrin 43a; df.t.Sanh. 10:11; y. Sanh. 7:12; Tg. Esther 7:9  (Another version of this text reads: "Yeshu the Nazarene."  Yeshu or Yehoshua is Hebrew (or Aramaic) for Jesus in English this name is also translated "Joshua."  The Old Testament hero bore the same name as Jesus the Messiah.  "Hanged" is another way of referring to a crucifixion; see Luke 23:39 and Galatians 3:13
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #38 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 2:52pm
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Muckster wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 1:32pm:
See my post. I doesn't really matter if Jesus was real or not. Most biblical scholars, including non-Christian ones, agree he existed. But that has nothing to do with anything. Going from he existed to he was divine, or the son of some god, is impossible. Doesn't matter who says it, how many times he says, or how many people say it. In fact, there were many group of Jesus' followers who specifically did not think he was divine, but was just a great preacher with helpful things to say. It's just that the groups that believed he was divine eventually won out, and their stories became what appears today as "the truth". Doesn't mean it IS the truth though.

So you honestly think ten of the 12 Apostles were willing to die a horrific death over a lie?  Don't see that happening, no one dies for a lie that they have nothing to gain or lose from.
  


"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Who really caused Jesus to be murdered.
Reply #39 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 3:35pm
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Seawolf wrote on Sep 8th, 2017 at 2:52pm:
So you honestly think ten of the 12 Apostles were willing to die a horrific death over a lie?  Don't see that happening, no one dies for a lie that they have nothing to gain or lose from.



If they believe it to be true, it is more likely that they would do as you say.


That still doesn't mean it's true.


Look, believe as you wish and enjoy these conversations, but please don't mix up proof and belief.
  

Under Capitalism, Man exploits Man.

Under Communism, it's the exact opposite.
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